From john.ekwall at mailbox.swipnet.se Wed Aug 3 21:42:12 2005 From: john.ekwall at mailbox.swipnet.se (John Ekwall) Date: Wed Aug 3 21:42:32 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Tristanimages-unique preview References: <42EAC9F4.1020001@eastcaribbean.com> Message-ID: <000801c59863$72921e10$ba2a65d5@HemPC> Hi all, After some silence, I am back with some "new images" of Tristan. During a fortnight I have been scanning thru slides of Roland Svensson (just a few boxes - more to come-puh). Some of them are now on the web but just for one or two weeks (this page is not public). http://www.sthelena.se/tristan/Images_RS/preview.htm Hope you will enjoy them. Just 10 days before I go on vacation (to my little island as usual - not Tristan nor St Helena but Karon south of Ronneby - I have made a special site on this island regarding old postcards - just check http://www.joesweden.info click on "vykort". Greetings from a dull and rather chilly Sweden John From imann at rocketmail.com Thu Aug 4 12:34:43 2005 From: imann at rocketmail.com (Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1) Date: Thu Aug 4 12:34:54 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Tristanimages-unique preview In-Reply-To: <000801c59863$72921e10$ba2a65d5@HemPC> Message-ID: <20050804103443.31708.qmail@web50307.mail.yahoo.com> Great photos John, Hope tp see more John Ekwall wrote:Hi all, After some silence, I am back with some "new images" of Tristan. During a fortnight I have been scanning thru slides of Roland Svensson (just a few boxes - more to come-puh). Some of them are now on the web but just for one or two weeks (this page is not public). http://www.sthelena.se/tristan/Images_RS/preview.htm Hope you will enjoy them. Just 10 days before I go on vacation (to my little island as usual - not Tristan nor St Helena but Karon south of Ronneby - I have made a special site on this island regarding old postcards - just check http://www.joesweden.info click on "vykort". Greetings from a dull and rather chilly Sweden John The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. SEMPER FI Co. L 3rd Balattalion, 1st Marines, 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade Sgt Ivan Mann USMC Retired http://ca.geocities.com/imann.rm/index.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050804/895ed07a/attachment.htm From grillfest at hot.ee Fri Aug 5 07:43:18 2005 From: grillfest at hot.ee (Tiit Treve) Date: Fri Aug 5 07:42:58 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Tristanimages-unique preview In-Reply-To: <000801c59863$72921e10$ba2a65d5@HemPC> Message-ID: <00a201c59980$95e084b0$640ba8c0@kylamaja> Hi John, very nice images from Tristan, never been there, but I hope ... Ronneby seems to me like " Children from Bullerby", same feeling like 35 years ago ... Tiit -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of John Ekwall Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:42 PM To: tristan-da-cunha@yahoogroups.com Cc: All about St. Helena - The Island of Napoleon (Eng) Subject: [STHELENA] Tristanimages-unique preview Hi all, After some silence, I am back with some "new images" of Tristan. During a fortnight I have been scanning thru slides of Roland Svensson (just a few boxes - more to come-puh). Some of them are now on the web but just for one or two weeks (this page is not public). http://www.sthelena.se/tristan/Images_RS/preview.htm Hope you will enjoy them. Just 10 days before I go on vacation (to my little island as usual - not Tristan nor St Helena but Karon south of Ronneby - I have made a special site on this island regarding old postcards - just check http://www.joesweden.info click on "vykort". Greetings from a dull and rather chilly Sweden John The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From Basti.Menke at gmx.de Sat Aug 6 12:53:40 2005 From: Basti.Menke at gmx.de (Basti.Menke@gmx.de) Date: Sat Aug 6 12:53:51 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] First Flight In A Russian Airplane Message-ID: <15486.1123325620@www48.gmx.net> Hey! I have found an internet site that says that you can reserve an flight to the island st.helena. The flight is in a russian airplane normally used in the russian taiga. ("http://www.reisen-spoerer.de/gruene-inseln/start.htm" I wonder 'cause i thought that it isn't clear weather there will be built an airport or not. Maybe someone knows something more. Ciao Basti -- 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++ From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Mon Aug 8 10:28:02 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Mon Aug 8 10:28:34 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] First Flight In A Russian Airplane In-Reply-To: <15486.1123325620@www48.gmx.net> Message-ID: <000b01c59bf3$1b3c9300$0a0b000a@shgbank10> The St.?Helena Airport is as definite as anything can be in this world. Regards, John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Basti.Menke@gmx.de Sent: 06 August 2005 10:54 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] First Flight In A Russian Airplane Hey! I have found an internet site that says that you can reserve an flight to the island st.helena. The flight is in a russian airplane normally used in the russian taiga. ("http://www.reisen-spoerer.de/gruene-inseln/start.htm" I wonder 'cause i thought that it isn't clear weather there will be built an airport or not. Maybe someone knows something more. Ciao Basti -- 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++ The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. __________ NOD32 1.1165 (20050711) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From nebbs at netvigator.com Mon Aug 8 12:53:48 2005 From: nebbs at netvigator.com (Adam) Date: Mon Aug 8 12:54:13 2005 Subject: [SPAM] Re: [STHELENA] First Flight In A Russian Airplane References: <000b01c59bf3$1b3c9300$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Message-ID: <002d01c59c07$748b0860$8484fea9@youre239e45312> Interesting Obit here for anyone interested in tristan: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&targetRule=10&xml=/news/2005/08/05/db0502.xml ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Turner, Bank of St. Helena" To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)'" Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: RE: [STHELENA] First Flight In A Russian Airplane > The St. Helena Airport is as definite as anything can be in this world. > Regards, > John Turner > Manager > Bank of St. Helena > www.SaintHelenaBank.com > Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. > Tel: +290 2044 > Fax: +290 2196 > NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are > those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. > This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for > the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication > privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you > received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, > any > review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or > any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly > prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in > error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the > communication. Thank you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf > Of Basti.Menke@gmx.de > Sent: 06 August 2005 10:54 > To: list@sthelena.se > Subject: [STHELENA] First Flight In A Russian Airplane > > > Hey! > > I have found an internet site that says that you can reserve an flight to > the island st.helena. The flight is in a russian airplane normally used in > the russian taiga. ("http://www.reisen-spoerer.de/gruene-inseln/start.htm" > I wonder 'cause i thought that it isn't clear weather there will be built > an > airport or not. Maybe someone knows something more. > > > Ciao Basti > > -- > 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail > +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++ > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > __________ NOD32 1.1165 (20050711) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > From Richard at demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 20:40:13 2005 From: Richard at demon.co.uk (Richard Buckby) Date: Mon Aug 8 20:41:22 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Postcode for Tristan In-Reply-To: <002d01c59c07$748b0860$8484fea9@youre239e45312> References: <000b01c59bf3$1b3c9300$0a0b000a@shgbank10> <002d01c59c07$748b0860$8484fea9@youre239e45312> Message-ID: Hello All, Another Tristan story in the UK 'Daily Telegraph'..... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/08/ncunha08.xml Richard Buckby, Ambergate, Derbyshire, UK -- Richard Buckby From iambiker at nildram.co.uk Tue Aug 9 00:02:44 2005 From: iambiker at nildram.co.uk (Jon (who else?)) Date: Tue Aug 9 00:02:49 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Postcode for Tristan References: <000b01c59bf3$1b3c9300$0a0b000a@shgbank10><002d01c59c07$748b0860$8484fea9@youre239e45312> Message-ID: <000901c59c64$e856c330$1b6dd0d5@meg> I saw this as well, apparently the postcodes were issued in 2002 but were issued some time later. St Helena has the post code of STHL 1ZZ Check out this website for details of the postcodes to other south atlantic islands Best wishes Jon (Dingey East London Correspondant) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Buckby" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:40 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [STHELENA] Postcode for Tristan > > Hello All, > > Another Tristan story in the UK 'Daily Telegraph'..... > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/08/ncunha08.xml > > > Richard Buckby, > > Ambergate, Derbyshire, UK > -- > Richard Buckby > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050808/73dcc5ad/attachment.htm From thomas at flyingkettle.com Fri Aug 12 17:28:37 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Fri Aug 12 17:29:12 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? Message-ID: <42FCCE35.18553.3D9C494@localhost> Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development for St. Helena. It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a whole) needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a purpose! This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, because air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local support community, and that would be important, in view of the large personnel requirements for such a setup. How does the list feel about such a proposal? Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII From nanystrom at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 23:03:11 2005 From: nanystrom at yahoo.com (Nissa Nystrom) Date: Fri Aug 12 23:03:23 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? In-Reply-To: <42FCCE35.18553.3D9C494@localhost> Message-ID: <20050812210311.96247.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> I do not believe the inhabitants of the island would be the least bit happy about such a proposal. Perhaps there is a space available near your home for such a development. I personally would prefer there was. --- Thomas Goodey wrote: > Here's an interesting speculation about a > hypothetical future development > for St. Helena. > > It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK > (indeed Europe as a whole) > needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated > area, fully under > Government control, where terrorist prisoners and > terrorist suspects can > be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) > out of the sight of > the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach > of the "lawyer > community", or at least, out of their convenient > reach. > > St. Helena has a proud track record of having been > used for just such a > purpose! > > This might be a fine spur for the building of the > airport, before the > current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. > > It might be argued that Ascension Island would be > more convenient, because > air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has > much more of a local > support community, and that would be important, in > view of the large > personnel requirements for such a setup. > > How does the list feel about such a proposal? > > Thomas Goodey > > ********************************************************* > The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives > into a > problem not only destroys its unity, but also > increases markedly both the time necessary for, > and the actual personal danger involved in, its > solution. > ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII > > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jcoyle at powerup.com.au Sat Aug 13 00:42:48 2005 From: jcoyle at powerup.com.au (John Coyle) Date: Sat Aug 13 00:40:57 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? References: <42FCCE35.18553.3D9C494@localhost> Message-ID: <027001c59f8f$2ab127c0$0400000a@PRAXIS> What a dreadful idea! And where on earth do you get the view that STH has a history of torture/humiliation of those confined there? Leaving aside the treatment of slaves up to the end of the eighteenth century, which was normal practice for those times, NO prisoner on the island has ever been tortured. If you refer to Napoleon's treatment by Hudson Lowe, much of the so-called humiliation was self-induced by a megalomaniac who thought he could move the protocols and systems of a European court to his environment as military prisoner. Dinizulu, for certain, was well treated, and I think the Bahreini prisoners in the 60's had few complaints about their incarceration. The Boer prisoners were kept in fair conditions, with plenty of food and medical treatment provided: a comparative few died while on the island, and my understanding is that most of those were from diseases common at the time. I do not think that any of the Saints I was proud to know would welcome being cast as potential torturers, anyway. John Coyle Brisbane, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Goodey" To: Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:28 AM Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development > for St. Helena. > > It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a whole) > needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under > Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can > be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of > the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer > community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. > > St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a > purpose! > > This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the > current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. > > It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, because > air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local > support community, and that would be important, in view of the large > personnel requirements for such a setup. > > How does the list feel about such a proposal? > > Thomas Goodey > > ********************************************************* > The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a > problem not only destroys its unity, but also > increases markedly both the time necessary for, > and the actual personal danger involved in, its > solution. > ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII > > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > From jvigor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 13 00:57:29 2005 From: jvigor at earthlink.net (John and June Vigor) Date: Sat Aug 13 00:55:24 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? References: <42FCCE35.18553.3D9C494@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c59f91$38a774e0$ce09f204@fmk4n> Thomas Goodey, you are a meddling, politically incorrect troublemaker. But oh, what a splendid suggestion. It's the very thing St. Helena is best at. I mean, apart from Napoleon and his hordes, they had 6,000 Boer prisoners there at one time--more prisoners than natural inhabitants. Any why wait for an airport and airliners that terrorist prisoners could hijack? All previous prisoners have arrived by sea, and we all know the dear all RMS runs half full most of the time. There must be plenty of room in steerage for a couple of hundred potential interogees on each voyage. And they're not as likely to be able to escape by sea as by air. Some have in the past, of course, but very few, comparatively speaking. You could dress them in canvas made from flax to support local industry, and they might even earn their keep--people who can make fancy bombs can surely repair the island's simple wind generators and keep them running. And maybe a few press gangs could organise a bunch of terrorist convicts into building a new quay and enclosed harbour, not to mention a proper escalator up Jacob's Ladder. Perhaps there would also be volunteers among the suicide bombers to do a little work with the Rock Guards. Feeding this lot would enable Solomons to make a small fortune and possibly the financial spin-off would help the island's hospitality industry, which is in poor shape at the moment, the Consulate Hotel reporting recently that it hasn't a single booking until March next year. Good on yer, Goodey. You're on to something. John Vigor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Goodey" To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 8:28 AM Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development > for St. Helena. > > It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a whole) > needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under > Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can > be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of > the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer > community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. > > St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a > purpose! > > This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the > current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. > > It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, because > air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local > support community, and that would be important, in view of the large > personnel requirements for such a setup. > > How does the list feel about such a proposal? > > Thomas Goodey > > ********************************************************* > The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a > problem not only destroys its unity, but also > increases markedly both the time necessary for, > and the actual personal danger involved in, its > solution. > ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII > > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From jrnixon at canl.nc Sat Aug 13 02:48:39 2005 From: jrnixon at canl.nc (John Nixon) Date: Sat Aug 13 02:49:14 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? References: <42FCCE35.18553.3D9C494@localhost> <027001c59f8f$2ab127c0$0400000a@PRAXIS> Message-ID: <002a01c59fa0$bf644350$4ec54aca@R600> I think the suggestion may have been a bit tongue in cheek, having a shot at the Yanks! Cheers, John Nixon ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Coyle" To: ; "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > What a dreadful idea! And where on earth do you get the view that STH has > a history of torture/humiliation of those confined there? Leaving aside > the treatment of slaves up to the end of the eighteenth century, which was > normal practice for those times, NO prisoner on the island has ever been > tortured. If you refer to Napoleon's treatment by Hudson Lowe, much of > the so-called humiliation was self-induced by a megalomaniac who thought > he could move the protocols and systems of a European court to his > environment as military prisoner. Dinizulu, for certain, was well > treated, and I think the Bahreini prisoners in the 60's had few complaints > about their incarceration. The Boer prisoners were kept in fair > conditions, with plenty of food and medical treatment provided: a > comparative few died while on the island, and my understanding is that > most of those were from diseases common at the time. > > I do not think that any of the Saints I was proud to know would welcome > being cast as potential torturers, anyway. > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Goodey" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:28 AM > Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > > >> Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development >> for St. Helena. >> >> It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a >> whole) >> needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under >> Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can >> be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of >> the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer >> community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. >> >> St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a >> purpose! >> >> This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the >> current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. >> >> It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, >> because >> air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local >> support community, and that would be important, in view of the large >> personnel requirements for such a setup. >> >> How does the list feel about such a proposal? >> >> Thomas Goodey >> >> ********************************************************* >> The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a >> problem not only destroys its unity, but also >> increases markedly both the time necessary for, >> and the actual personal danger involved in, its >> solution. >> ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII >> >> >> >> >> >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > From rroach at indy.rr.com Sat Aug 13 16:04:03 2005 From: rroach at indy.rr.com (Ralph Roach) Date: Sat Aug 13 16:04:18 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey References: <200508131000.j7DA04V6029433@rex.kulturservern.se> Message-ID: <000701c5a00f$dd1f0b40$e9591d41@FAMILYROOM> In response to Mr. Thomas Goodey. As an American, I see Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as the ideal spot for persons who do not deserve "lawyers." They do not come under the Geneva Conventions as Prisoners of War. In fact they should be shot (the torture and humiliation that I recommend). The UK SHOULD have its own version of Guantanamo. Please be knowledgeable before you speak ill of my country. Ralph Roach Indianapolis. Indiana, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:00 AM Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6 > Send List mailing list submissions to > list@sthelena.se > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > list-request@sthelena.se > > You can reach the person managing the list at > list-owner@sthelena.se > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of List digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. An interesting speculation? (Thomas Goodey) > 2. Re: An interesting speculation? (Nissa Nystrom) > 3. Re: An interesting speculation? (John Coyle) > 4. Re: An interesting speculation? (John and June Vigor) > 5. Re: An interesting speculation? (John Nixon) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:28:37 +0100 > From: "Thomas Goodey" > Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > To: list@sthelena.se > Message-ID: <42FCCE35.18553.3D9C494@localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development > for St. Helena. > > It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a whole) > needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under > Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can > be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of > the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer > community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. > > St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a > purpose! > > This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the > current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. > > It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, because > air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local > support community, and that would be important, in view of the large > personnel requirements for such a setup. > > How does the list feel about such a proposal? > > Thomas Goodey > > ********************************************************* > The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a > problem not only destroys its unity, but also > increases markedly both the time necessary for, > and the actual personal danger involved in, its > solution. > ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: Nissa Nystrom > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com, "All about St. Helena - The Island in the > South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > Message-ID: <20050812210311.96247.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I do not believe the inhabitants of the island would > be the least bit happy about such a proposal. Perhaps > there is a space available near your home for such a > development. I personally would prefer there was. > > --- Thomas Goodey wrote: > >> Here's an interesting speculation about a >> hypothetical future development >> for St. Helena. >> >> It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK >> (indeed Europe as a whole) >> needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated >> area, fully under >> Government control, where terrorist prisoners and >> terrorist suspects can >> be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) >> out of the sight of >> the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach >> of the "lawyer >> community", or at least, out of their convenient >> reach. >> >> St. Helena has a proud track record of having been >> used for just such a >> purpose! >> >> This might be a fine spur for the building of the >> airport, before the >> current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. >> >> It might be argued that Ascension Island would be >> more convenient, because >> air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has >> much more of a local >> support community, and that would be important, in >> view of the large >> personnel requirements for such a setup. >> >> How does the list feel about such a proposal? >> >> Thomas Goodey >> >> > ********************************************************* >> The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives >> into a >> problem not only destroys its unity, but also >> increases markedly both the time necessary for, >> and the actual personal danger involved in, its >> solution. >> ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII >> >> >> >> >> >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:42:48 +1000 > From: "John Coyle" > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > To: , "All about St. Helena - The Island in > the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > Message-ID: <027001c59f8f$2ab127c0$0400000a@PRAXIS> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > What a dreadful idea! And where on earth do you get the view that STH has > a > history of torture/humiliation of those confined there? Leaving aside the > treatment of slaves up to the end of the eighteenth century, which was > normal practice for those times, NO prisoner on the island has ever been > tortured. If you refer to Napoleon's treatment by Hudson Lowe, much of > the > so-called humiliation was self-induced by a megalomaniac who thought he > could move the protocols and systems of a European court to his > environment > as military prisoner. Dinizulu, for certain, was well treated, and I > think > the Bahreini prisoners in the 60's had few complaints about their > incarceration. The Boer prisoners were kept in fair conditions, with > plenty > of food and medical treatment provided: a comparative few died while on > the > island, and my understanding is that most of those were from diseases > common > at the time. > > I do not think that any of the Saints I was proud to know would welcome > being cast as potential torturers, anyway. > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Goodey" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:28 AM > Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > > >> Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development >> for St. Helena. >> >> It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a >> whole) >> needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under >> Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can >> be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of >> the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer >> community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. >> >> St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a >> purpose! >> >> This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the >> current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. >> >> It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, >> because >> air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local >> support community, and that would be important, in view of the large >> personnel requirements for such a setup. >> >> How does the list feel about such a proposal? >> >> Thomas Goodey >> >> ********************************************************* >> The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a >> problem not only destroys its unity, but also >> increases markedly both the time necessary for, >> and the actual personal danger involved in, its >> solution. >> ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII >> >> >> >> >> >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:57:29 -0700 > From: "John and June Vigor" > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: <000901c59f91$38a774e0$ce09f204@fmk4n> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Thomas Goodey, you are a meddling, politically incorrect troublemaker. But > oh, what a splendid suggestion. It's the very thing St. Helena is best > at. > I mean, apart from Napoleon and his hordes, they had 6,000 Boer prisoners > there at one time--more prisoners than natural inhabitants. > Any why wait for an airport and airliners that terrorist prisoners could > hijack? All previous prisoners have arrived by sea, and we all know the > dear all RMS runs half full most of the time. There must be plenty of > room > in steerage for a couple of hundred potential interogees on each voyage. > And they're not as likely to be able to escape by sea as by air. Some > have > in the past, of course, but very few, comparatively speaking. > You could dress them in canvas made from flax to support local industry, > and > they might even earn their keep--people who can make fancy bombs can > surely > repair the island's simple wind generators and keep them running. And > maybe > a few press gangs could organise a bunch of terrorist convicts into > building > a new quay and enclosed harbour, not to mention a proper escalator up > Jacob's Ladder. Perhaps there would also be volunteers among the suicide > bombers to do a little work with the Rock Guards. > Feeding this lot would enable Solomons to make a small fortune and > possibly > the financial spin-off would help the island's hospitality industry, which > is in poor shape at the moment, the Consulate Hotel reporting recently > that > it hasn't a single booking until March next year. > Good on yer, Goodey. You're on to something. > > John Vigor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Goodey" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 8:28 AM > Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > > >> Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future development >> for St. Helena. >> >> It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a >> whole) >> needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under >> Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can >> be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of >> the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer >> community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. >> >> St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a >> purpose! >> >> This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the >> current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. >> >> It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, >> because >> air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a local >> support community, and that would be important, in view of the large >> personnel requirements for such a setup. >> >> How does the list feel about such a proposal? >> >> Thomas Goodey >> >> ********************************************************* >> The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a >> problem not only destroys its unity, but also >> increases markedly both the time necessary for, >> and the actual personal danger involved in, its >> solution. >> ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII >> >> >> >> >> >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:48:39 +1200 > From: "John Nixon" > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > , > Message-ID: <002a01c59fa0$bf644350$4ec54aca@R600> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > I think the suggestion may have been a bit tongue in cheek, having a shot > at > the Yanks! > > Cheers, > > John Nixon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Coyle" > To: ; "All about St. Helena - The Island in the > South Atlantic(Eng)" > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:42 AM > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? > > >> What a dreadful idea! And where on earth do you get the view that STH >> has >> a history of torture/humiliation of those confined there? Leaving aside >> the treatment of slaves up to the end of the eighteenth century, which >> was >> normal practice for those times, NO prisoner on the island has ever been >> tortured. If you refer to Napoleon's treatment by Hudson Lowe, much of >> the so-called humiliation was self-induced by a megalomaniac who thought >> he could move the protocols and systems of a European court to his >> environment as military prisoner. Dinizulu, for certain, was well >> treated, and I think the Bahreini prisoners in the 60's had few >> complaints >> about their incarceration. The Boer prisoners were kept in fair >> conditions, with plenty of food and medical treatment provided: a >> comparative few died while on the island, and my understanding is that >> most of those were from diseases common at the time. >> >> I do not think that any of the Saints I was proud to know would welcome >> being cast as potential torturers, anyway. >> >> John Coyle >> Brisbane, Australia >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Thomas Goodey" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:28 AM >> Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? >> >> >>> Here's an interesting speculation about a hypothetical future >>> development >>> for St. Helena. >>> >>> It is becoming more and more clear, that the UK (indeed Europe as a >>> whole) >>> needs an analog of Guantanamo - a very isolated area, fully under >>> Government control, where terrorist prisoners and terrorist suspects can >>> be detained and interrogated (tortured/humiliated?) out of the sight of >>> the world's media, and, hopefully, out of the reach of the "lawyer >>> community", or at least, out of their convenient reach. >>> >>> St. Helena has a proud track record of having been used for just such a >>> purpose! >>> >>> This might be a fine spur for the building of the airport, before the >>> current ridiculously dilatory date of 2010. >>> >>> It might be argued that Ascension Island would be more convenient, >>> because >>> air travel is possible right now. But St. Helena has much more of a >>> local >>> support community, and that would be important, in view of the large >>> personnel requirements for such a setup. >>> >>> How does the list feel about such a proposal? >>> >>> Thomas Goodey >>> >>> ********************************************************* >>> The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a >>> problem not only destroys its unity, but also >>> increases markedly both the time necessary for, >>> and the actual personal danger involved in, its >>> solution. >>> ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The S:t Helena Mailing List >>> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >>> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >>> >> >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List mailing list > List@sthelena.se > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > > > End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6 > *********************************** > From Herbote at aol.com Sat Aug 13 16:33:47 2005 From: Herbote at aol.com (Herbote@aol.com) Date: Sat Aug 13 16:34:03 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> I think that comment is not justified at all, and it should not be commented with this St Helena discussion list. We have to accept (lot of?) some Americans are sick about patriotism and every country has the right to make the own mistakes, although others have to pay the bill. But if someone is promoting with this list people should be shoot, I feel this "proud American" has cancelled his own membership with this list and the list mediator should think about to delete his membership. Burkhard Herbote, Germany In einer eMail vom 13.08.2005 16:05:31 Westeurop?ische Normalzeit schreibt rroach@indy.rr.com: In response to Mr. Thomas Goodey. As an American, I see Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as the ideal spot for persons who do not deserve "lawyers." They do not come under the Geneva Conventions as Prisoners of War. In fact they should be shot (the torture and humiliation that I recommend). The UK SHOULD have its own version of Guantanamo. Please be knowledgeable before you speak ill of my country. Ralph Roach Indianapolis. Indiana, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:00 AM Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050813/f2d1c1ac/attachment.htm From svest at mindspring.com Sat Aug 13 17:53:44 2005 From: svest at mindspring.com (Steven W. Vest) Date: Sat Aug 13 17:52:58 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> References: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> Message-ID: <1123948424.13009.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Although I would prefer it to be worded differently, Guantanamo has been a perfect place for the terrorists to be kept. As for torture and humiliation, that is idiotic. Yes, there are techniques used to extract information, but within limits. If not, we are no better than the terrorists that we claim to hate. As for Saint Helena being used to detain terrorists, that, like everything else related to Saint Helena, is something for the people of Saint Helena to decide. It is the same view that I have with the airport. I know a lot of us would prefer Saint Helena to be maintained as an isolated little world that we may some day get a chance to visit, but the bottom line is that the people that have to live there should make it into what they want it to be. As for banning the person the sent the other e-mail, that seems ridiculous. I am not sure why Burk feels threatened by this, but it is just someone stating an opinion. I would say that the topics posted here should not stray from Saint Helena too far, but as long as someone doesn't spam the list with numerous off topic e-mails, I do not see the harm. I am not scared of others opinions and I do not want to see theme censored. God bless, Steven W. Vest Robbins, North Carolina, USA -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Herbote@aol.com Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:33:47 EDT Size: 6123 Url: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050813/8ddf2528/attachment-0001.eml From nebbs at netvigator.com Sat Aug 13 19:12:18 2005 From: nebbs at netvigator.com (Adam) Date: Sat Aug 13 19:12:41 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey References: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> <1123948424.13009.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001101c5a02a$291f12a0$8484fea9@youre239e45312> Since all the former Guantanamo detainess who have been returned to the UK and elsewhwere have been released on their return for lack of evidence, it seems unlikely that the British government would incarcerate such people without due legal process. Brits and other Western countries still tend to go with the 'innocent until proven guilty' approach, rather than the opposiste that is now being adopted by the Pentagon. St Helena's remoteness might be convenient for US policies, but not for British ones, at least not yet. Adam Hong Kong ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven W. Vest" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > Although I would prefer it to be worded differently, Guantanamo has been > a perfect place for the terrorists to be kept. As for torture and > humiliation, that is idiotic. Yes, there are techniques used to extract > information, but within limits. If not, we are no better than the > terrorists that we claim to hate. > > As for Saint Helena being used to detain terrorists, that, like > everything else related to Saint Helena, is something for the people of > Saint Helena to decide. It is the same view that I have with the > airport. I know a lot of us would prefer Saint Helena to be maintained > as an isolated little world that we may some day get a chance to visit, > but the bottom line is that the people that have to live there should > make it into what they want it to be. > > As for banning the person the sent the other e-mail, that seems > ridiculous. I am not sure why Burk feels threatened by this, but it is > just someone stating an opinion. > > I would say that the topics posted here should not stray from Saint > Helena too far, but as long as someone doesn't spam the list with > numerous off topic e-mails, I do not see the harm. I am not scared of > others opinions and I do not want to see theme censored. > > God bless, > Steven W. Vest > Robbins, North Carolina, USA > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From calvillo45 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 13 19:36:26 2005 From: calvillo45 at hotmail.com (Luis Carlos Calvillo Capri) Date: Sat Aug 13 19:36:37 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Prisions in St. Helena Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050813/678c6514/attachment.htm From svest at mindspring.com Sat Aug 13 22:47:43 2005 From: svest at mindspring.com (Steven W. Vest) Date: Sat Aug 13 22:47:00 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <001101c5a02a$291f12a0$8484fea9@youre239e45312> References: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> <1123948424.13009.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <001101c5a02a$291f12a0$8484fea9@youre239e45312> Message-ID: <1123966064.17084.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> I am not familiar with the new guilty first policy that you mention that the Pentagon has sponsored. Please provide a link to their statements or proof of your allegations. Thank you and God Bless, Steven W. Vest -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Adam" Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:12:18 +0800 Size: 5137 Url: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050813/07b32863/attachment.eml From nebbs at netvigator.com Sat Aug 13 23:05:09 2005 From: nebbs at netvigator.com (Adam) Date: Sat Aug 13 23:05:24 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey References: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com><1123948424.13009.8.camel@localhost.localdomain><001101c5a02a$291f12a0$8484fea9@youre239e45312> <1123966064.17084.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001a01c5a04a$b0a9cfb0$8484fea9@youre239e45312> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3386513.stm 'The Bush administration has declared the detainees to be unlawful enemy combatants in its war on terrorism........But Human Rights Watch says some of them are probably just civilians and at least three of the detainees are 15 years old or younger." That's it for me on this issue, I'll respect others wishes to keep on the topic of St Helena from now on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven W. Vest" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey >I am not familiar with the new guilty first policy that you mention that > the Pentagon has sponsored. Please provide a link to their statements or > proof of your allegations. > > Thank you and God Bless, > Steven W. Vest > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From kesslerg at hotmail.com Mon Aug 15 01:21:44 2005 From: kesslerg at hotmail.com (Gregory Kessler) Date: Mon Aug 15 01:21:58 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050814/ff3201cb/attachment.htm From svest at mindspring.com Mon Aug 15 02:26:21 2005 From: svest at mindspring.com (Steven W. Vest) Date: Mon Aug 15 02:25:29 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124065581.5019.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> It is an interesting prospect, although I am not sure how the people of Saint Helena would feel. Having a prison in your backyard when your yard isn't that big could be a real turn off. On the other hand, something like that could support a small island like Saint Helena. As I have stated previously, decisions like this should be up to the residents. It would be easy for someone in Britain to take this as an outstanding idea and the residents would end up getting it thrust upon them. God Bless, Steven W. Vest -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Gregory Kessler" Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:21:44 -0500 Size: 5410 Url: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050814/13b95baa/attachment.eml From imann at rocketmail.com Tue Aug 16 03:12:18 2005 From: imann at rocketmail.com (Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1) Date: Tue Aug 16 03:12:30 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <001a01c5a04a$b0a9cfb0$8484fea9@youre239e45312> Message-ID: <20050816011218.73982.qmail@web50301.mail.yahoo.com> In other wars they would have been shot on the spot. If they are not in uniform they should be treated as murderous criminals and not given the rights soldiers are given. Adam wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3386513.stm 'The Bush administration has declared the detainees to be unlawful enemy combatants in its war on terrorism........But Human Rights Watch says some of them are probably just civilians and at least three of the detainees are 15 years old or younger." That's it for me on this issue, I'll respect others wishes to keep on the topic of St Helena from now on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven W. Vest" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey >I am not familiar with the new guilty first policy that you mention that > the Pentagon has sponsored. Please provide a link to their statements or > proof of your allegations. > > Thank you and God Bless, > Steven W. Vest > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. SEMPER FI Co. L 3rd Balattalion, 1st Marines, 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade Sgt Ivan Mann USMC Retired http://ca.geocities.com/imann.rm/index.html --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050815/72eaf0b5/attachment.htm From svest at mindspring.com Tue Aug 16 05:43:55 2005 From: svest at mindspring.com (Steven W. Vest) Date: Tue Aug 16 05:43:00 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <20050816011218.73982.qmail@web50301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050816011218.73982.qmail@web50301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124163835.20949.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> True, but this topic is way off topic for this room. Lets just say there are some different opinions on this and agree to disagree. People are in this list to learn more about Saint Helena. This type of discussion is way off topic. God Bless, Steven W. Vest -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1 Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Size: 7711 Url: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050815/4c2321d2/attachment.eml From Hdchucker at aol.com Tue Aug 16 08:36:25 2005 From: Hdchucker at aol.com (Hdchucker@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 16 08:36:43 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: <1f9.fe79f23.3032e369@aol.com> It is a sad thing that people have the ability to hate. 19 people, with the help of a clandestine organization pulled off something on 9/11 that even they had no idea that they would be able to accomplish. As a result, the United States of America has overthrown the governments of two countries. Because of this it has caused extreme hate to come to the surface in the United States; and because of what the U.S. has done the fuel has been poured on the fire of the Islamic extremists. It is a very sad situation. Now, those of us who would love to visit an Island farther away from anywhere, than any other place in the world, have been deluged with hateful people who would wish to use St. Helena once again as an outpost prison camp for those that some people would chose to deny these people any sort of human rights and would like to see them die inside captivity and if not dying fast enough to torture them to death. Have we learned anything from our mistakes in the past? Have we learned that to be as evil as our enemies serves no good purpose? Who are we, really? Why is it that many of the people who quote passages from the Bible are the very ones who would promote these things? Is it necessary that we all go to a place that is farther away from any place else in the world? Is that what is necessary to get away from the hate that seems to fill the human existence? Perhaps, even on St. Helena we could not escape the cancer that is so prevalent in the human race. If the human race cannot get a handle on this cancer, it is only a period of time before some of the crazies have nuclear capabilities. The technology for the Atomic Bomb is now over 60 years old. The actual idea for one is so simple that it is ridiculous, and I do not understand why we have not had to face a radical group of people being able to make a device, and to use it. It is only a matter of time before a rouge nation is able to make one; and those who are driven by hate are only insuring that we will eventually destroy ourselves and much of the world in this madness. An eye for an eye. They did this to me. I must have revenge. Where does it lead to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050816/9414b7ee/attachment.htm From Herbote at aol.com Tue Aug 16 09:53:44 2005 From: Herbote at aol.com (Herbote@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 16 09:54:02 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: <1d8.430f4e8e.3032f588@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 16.08.2005 08:38:33 Westeurop?ische Normalzeit schreibt Hdchucker@aol.com: An eye for an eye. Yes, BUT the real meaning is NOT "to take an eye for an eye" BUT to "give an eye for an eye". THAT is the real meaning! Those (Americans only?) who believe "War" is "culture" have not learned anything from the past. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050816/fd72c22a/attachment.htm From Vince.Thompson at networkrail.co.uk Tue Aug 16 12:32:58 2005 From: Vince.Thompson at networkrail.co.uk (Thompson Vince) Date: Tue Aug 16 12:33:58 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] RE: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10 Message-ID: <47961DE15E7B98438975AF8451161069F96372@sr1mm01.corp.UKrail.net> Dear All In response to the original question, every time there is an infamous deposed dictator or an Osram Laden Bin type is captured someone somewhere suggests he or she should be exiled to St Helena. As these social outcasts do not have Islander Status and are not likely to get a work permit I'm sure SHG can call upon innumerable Ordinances and Regulations which can keep them out. Jolly good thing too! And another thing, if the right Ordinance does not exist it does not take long to get one on the Statute Book when the will is there. Lastly, this debate is too intense to suit the laid back atmosphere which happily prevails on the island. Peaceful salutations to all. Vince -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of list-request@sthelena.se Sent: 16 August 2005 11:00 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10 Send List mailing list submissions to list@sthelena.se To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to list-request@sthelena.se You can reach the person managing the list at list-owner@sthelena.se When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1) 2. Re: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Steven W. Vest) 3. Re: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Hdchucker@aol.com) 4. Re: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Herbote@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1 Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" Message-ID: <20050816011218.73982.qmail@web50301.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In other wars they would have been shot on the spot. If they are not in uniform they should be treated as murderous criminals and not given the rights soldiers are given. Adam wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3386513.stm 'The Bush administration has declared the detainees to be unlawful enemy combatants in its war on terrorism........But Human Rights Watch says some of them are probably just civilians and at least three of the detainees are 15 years old or younger." That's it for me on this issue, I'll respect others wishes to keep on the topic of St Helena from now on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven W. Vest" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 4:47 AM Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey >I am not familiar with the new guilty first policy that you mention that > the Pentagon has sponsored. Please provide a link to their statements or > proof of your allegations. > > Thank you and God Bless, > Steven W. Vest > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. SEMPER FI Co. L 3rd Balattalion, 1st Marines, 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade Sgt Ivan Mann USMC Retired http://ca.geocities.com/imann.rm/index.html --------------------------------- Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050815/72eaf0b5/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:43:55 -0400 From: "Steven W. Vest" Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Message-ID: <1124163835.20949.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" True, but this topic is way off topic for this room. Lets just say there are some different opinions on this and agree to disagree. People are in this list to learn more about Saint Helena. This type of discussion is way off topic. God Bless, Steven W. Vest -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1 Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Size: 7711 Url: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050815/4c2321d2/attachment-0001.eml ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:36:25 EDT From: Hdchucker@aol.com Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey To: list@sthelena.se Message-ID: <1f9.fe79f23.3032e369@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It is a sad thing that people have the ability to hate. 19 people, with the help of a clandestine organization pulled off something on 9/11 that even they had no idea that they would be able to accomplish. As a result, the United States of America has overthrown the governments of two countries. Because of this it has caused extreme hate to come to the surface in the United States; and because of what the U.S. has done the fuel has been poured on the fire of the Islamic extremists. It is a very sad situation. Now, those of us who would love to visit an Island farther away from anywhere, than any other place in the world, have been deluged with hateful people who would wish to use St. Helena once again as an outpost prison camp for those that some people would chose to deny these people any sort of human rights and would like to see them die inside captivity and if not dying fast enough to torture them to death. Have we learned anything from our mistakes in the past? Have we learned that to be as evil as our enemies serves no good purpose? Who are we, really? Why is it that many of the people who quote passages from the Bible are the very ones who would promote these things? Is it necessary that we all go to a place that is farther away from any place else in the world? Is that what is necessary to get away from the hate that seems to fill the human existence? Perhaps, even on St. Helena we could not escape the cancer that is so prevalent in the human race. If the human race cannot get a handle on this cancer, it is only a period of time before some of the crazies have nuclear capabilities. The technology for the Atomic Bomb is now over 60 years old. The actual idea for one is so simple that it is ridiculous, and I do not understand why we have not had to face a radical group of people being able to make a device, and to use it. It is only a matter of time before a rouge nation is able to make one; and those who are driven by hate are only insuring that we will eventually destroy ourselves and much of the world in this madness. An eye for an eye. They did this to me. I must have revenge. Where does it lead to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050816/9414b7ee/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:53:44 EDT From: Herbote@aol.com Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey To: list@sthelena.se Message-ID: <1d8.430f4e8e.3032f588@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In einer eMail vom 16.08.2005 08:38:33 Westeurop?ische Normalzeit schreibt Hdchucker@aol.com: An eye for an eye. Yes, BUT the real meaning is NOT "to take an eye for an eye" BUT to "give an eye for an eye". THAT is the real meaning! Those (Americans only?) who believe "War" is "culture" have not learned anything from the past. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050816/fd72c22a/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List mailing list List@sthelena.se http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10 ************************************ Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ From nanystrom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 15:35:56 2005 From: nanystrom at yahoo.com (Nissa Nystrom) Date: Tue Aug 16 15:36:08 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <1f9.fe79f23.3032e369@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050816133556.2488.qmail@web54501.mail.yahoo.com> Well said! I couldn't agree more. Nissa Nystrom --- Hdchucker@aol.com wrote: > It is a sad thing that people have the ability to > hate. 19 people, with the > help of a clandestine organization pulled off > something on 9/11 that even > they had no idea that they would be able to > accomplish. > > As a result, the United States of America has > overthrown the governments of > two countries. Because of this it has caused > extreme hate to come to the > surface in the United States; and because of what > the U.S. has done the fuel has > been poured on the fire of the Islamic extremists. > It is a very sad > situation. > > Now, those of us who would love to visit an Island > farther away from > anywhere, than any other place in the world, have > been deluged with hateful people > who would wish to use St. Helena once again as an > outpost prison camp for > those that some people would chose to deny these > people any sort of human rights > and would like to see them die inside captivity and > if not dying fast enough > to torture them to death. > > Have we learned anything from our mistakes in the > past? Have we learned > that to be as evil as our enemies serves no good > purpose? Who are we, really? > Why is it that many of the people who quote passages > from the Bible are the > very ones who would promote these things? > > Is it necessary that we all go to a place that is > farther away from any > place else in the world? Is that what is necessary > to get away from the hate > that seems to fill the human existence? Perhaps, > even on St. Helena we could > not escape the cancer that is so prevalent in the > human race. If the human > race cannot get a handle on this cancer, it is only > a period of time before some > of the crazies have nuclear capabilities. The > technology for the Atomic > Bomb is now over 60 years old. The actual idea for > one is so simple that it is > ridiculous, and I do not understand why we have not > had to face a radical > group of people being able to make a device, and to > use it. It is only a matter > of time before a rouge nation is able to make one; > and those who are driven > by hate are only insuring that we will eventually > destroy ourselves and much > of the world in this madness. > > An eye for an eye. They did this to me. I must have > revenge. Where does it > lead to? > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From pak at korol.com Tue Aug 16 16:45:35 2005 From: pak at korol.com (P. A. Koroluk) Date: Tue Aug 16 16:45:29 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: Dear List Members, Although I hesitate to contribute to the drift of discussion away from St. Helena, I thought this timely article might provide some useful background reference. Your humble servant, Paul Koroluk writing from Tokyo +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ America (americamagazine.org) Vol. 193 No. 4, August 15, 2005 Bush, Torture and Lincoln's Legacy By James Ross Being the only superpower means never having to say you're sorry. In the year since the first photos of humiliation and torture at Abu Ghraib prison were leaked, there has been a flurry of Pentagon studies, jump-started criminal investigations and disturbing new revelations in the media. Yet public attention has not translated into sustained public outcry. The Bush administration has been remarkably successful thus far in in its efforts to avoid paying a political price for policies that are destined to endanger U.S. soldiers in future wars and harm America's long-term foreign policy interests. An important reason for this muted outrage has been the administration's skill in disparaging the laws of armed conflict--that hoary body of international law that does not ban war, but seeks to minimize the suffering war invariably produces. The administration has sought to portray this law, particularly the Geneva Conventions of 1949, as harmful rather than helpful for protecting America's security. When the first detainees arrived at Guanta'namo Bay in January 2002, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, declared them all to be unlawful combatants who "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. The United States, he said, would "for the most part, treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the Geneva Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate." Later that month, then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales wrote to President Bush that the Geneva Convention provisions on questioning enemy prisoners were "obsolete" and argued, among other things, that rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Convention "[s]ubstantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal prosecution" of U.S. officials for war crimes. Over the objections of then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and military leaders, President Bush essentially adopted this line. On Feb. 7, 2002, he announced that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in military operations against Al Qaeda. Rumsfeld told journalists that day: "The reality is the set of facts that exist today with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not necessarily the set of facts that were considered when the Geneva Convention was fashioned." The administration's rejection of the Geneva Conventions was unlawful, unnecessary and ultimately led to the abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guanta'namo Bay. Under the Geneva Conventions, captured members of armed groups such as Al Qaeda are not entitled to prisoner-of-war status. They are nonetheless entitled to the basic protections afforded all persons taken into custody in a battle zone, including protection from torture and other ill treatment, a fair trial should they be charged with a crime and, in the case of civilian detainees, periodic review of the security rationale for their detention. The administration's policy opened the door for the bizarre legal theories put forward in the infamous "torture memos" drafted in 2002 and 2003. Besides nearly defining away the concept of torture, these memos claim that no law, international or domestic, bans the president, as commander in chief, from ordering torture. (By this reasoning, Saddam Hussein could lawfully order torture too.) Although the White House frequently repeated the mantra of "humane treatment" of detainees, the rejection of the Geneva Conventions and the torture memos' encouragement of unlawful practices meant that the pragmatic and legally grounded U.S. military regulations on interrogations could safely be ignored. Abraham Lincoln and General Orders 100 The Bush administration's attitude toward the laws of war is a radical departure from longstanding U.S. military practice. During the Korean War, the United States treated enemy soldiers in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, even though none of the protagonists had yet to ratify the treaties. In Vietnam, captured Viet Cong were held as prisoners of war even though the letter of the law did not require it. This is an old and noble tradition. David Hackett Fischer describes in his recent book, Washington's Crossing, how Gen. George Washington made sure that captured British and Hessian soldiers were treated humanely, even though the British often executed captured Continentals. Washington was not just being generous: he understood that such treatment would over time best serve the interests of American soldiers. Surprisingly little attention has been paid to President Bush's--and everyone else's--most admired president, Abraham Lincoln, on the laws of war. Despite the grave threat the Civil War posed to the nation, Lincoln recognized the value of broadly recognized rules of war that promote restraint and humanistic principles. By late 1862, the bloody day at Antietam and the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation had totally changed the nature of the war. In Bruce Catton's words, "The war now was a war to preserve the Union and to end slavery.... It could not stop until one side or the other was made incapable of fighting any longer; hence, by the standards of that day, it was going to be an all-out war--hard, ruthless, vicious.... Lincoln recognized that such a conflict required greater attention to war's customary rules, not less. First was the problem of the legal status of captured Confederate soldiers. Lincoln did not want to recognize the rebellion of the Southern states as legitimate, nor was it desirable or feasible to label all Johnny Rebs as traitors subject to execution. He needed a way to treat captured Confederate soldiers as prisoners of war without suggesting that the Confederate States of America was a lawful state. Second, the hyper-expansion of the U.S. military from a peacetime force of 13,000 professional soldiers to multiple armies of several hundred thousand volunteers and conscripts placed huge burdens on military discipline. In northern Virginia and other areas under federal occupation, vandalism by Union forces was rampant. Whereas the old army could slowly familiarize new recruits with the traditional laws of war, the Civil War army, whose officers were often as green as its foot soldiers, required a clearly written set of rules of practical value. Lincoln turned for advice to an e'migre' legal scholar, Francis Lieber, at Columbia College (now University) in New York City. Born in Berlin, Lieber as a teenager fought and was severely wounded during the Waterloo campaign. Prussian political repression brought him to the United States in 1827. He taught for many years in South Carolina, keeping quiet his strong abolitionist views until he transferred to Columbia's faculty in 1857. More than his European upbringing, Lieber's views on the laws of war reflected his life in America: two of his sons fought for the Union, one losing an arm at Fort Donelson. His eldest son, raised in the South, joined the Confederate ranks and was mortally wounded at the Battle of Williamsburg in May 1862. In a letter to Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, Lieber wrote: "I knew war as [a] soldier, as a wounded man in the hospital, as an observing citizen, but I had yet to learn it in the phase of a father searching for his wounded son, walking through the hospitals, peering in the ambulances." Contrary to prevailing attitudes in the North, Lieber urged that on humanitarian grounds Union forces grant the privileges of belligerency to Confederate forces. This allowed Lincoln to dodge the thorny question of appearing to recognize the Confederacy while providing rebel soldiers the protections then normally due prisoners of war. (Bush appeared to be adopting this approach when he called for the humane treatment of Guanta'namo detainees, but the practice never measured up to his words.) This humanistic strain runs through Lieber's Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, which President Lincoln approved on April 24, 1863, as General Orders No. 100. The Lieber code, as it is now known, was the first recognized codification of the laws of war in modern times. As Lieber noted at the time, "nothing of the kind exists in any language. I had no guide, no ground-work, no text-book." Its 157 rules made a lasting place for Lieber--and the United States--in the development of the laws of war. Lieber was no softie when it came to warfare. While believing that the final aim of war was to re-establish the state of peace, he argued that the best way to achieve this was through short, decisive wars. As Article 29 of Lieber's code states, "the more vigorously wars are pursued, the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief." This thinking underlines U.S. war-fighting doctrine today. The Lieber code has been criticized for its reliance on the doctrine of "military necessity," which permits often egregious practices so long as a commander has a military justification, an all-too-handy escape clause. But Lieber's conception of military necessity actually placed limits on an army's actions where previously none existed. Thus pre-Lieber code armies could loot and destroy civilian property at will, even when there was no military need for doing so. Other Lieber code provisions considered barbaric today--such as the starvation of besieged towns--were part and parcel of 19th-century warfare and have since been prohibited. Such caveats aside, the Lieber code consolidated important humanizing elements of warfare. Of particular note are Lieber's, and ultimately Lincoln's, views on the treatment of prisoners. Article 16 of the code boldly states: "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions." All forms of cruelty against prisoners are prohibited. Even the code's broad acceptance of military necessity does not provide a justification for torture. General Orders No. 100 was distributed to the Union armies in the field, and the standards set by the code seem to have been generally observed by both sides. At the close of the war, the code's precepts figured in the debate over Sherman's destructive "March to the Sea," and in the trial and conviction of Captain Henry Wirtz, commandant of the notorious Confederate prison camp at Andersonville in Georgia. The major powers of Europe quickly recognized the value of codified laws of war, and Lieber's code became the model for Prussia and other armies on the continent. Ultimately this American vision of warfare and the treatment of prisoners became the basis for the major international treaties, namely the Hague Regulations at the turn of the 20th century and the Geneva Conventions at mid-century. Geneva's strict prohibitions on torture and other cruel treatment can be traced through Lieber's own uncompromising language. Pooh-Poohing the Geneva Conventions The Bush administration, by openly disregarding the laws of war in its treatment of detainees, has undermined an important American tradition. Even after the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos, Secretary Rumsfeld continued to pooh-pooh the Geneva Conventions. On NBC's "Today" program on May 5, 2004, he explained that the conventions "did not apply precisely" but were "basic rules" for handling prisoners. Visiting Abu Ghraib a week later, Rumsfeld remarked: "Geneva doesn't say what you do when you get up in the morning" In fact, the U.S. armed forces have devoted considerable energy over the years to making the Geneva Conventions fully operational among military personnel. Various U.S. military field manuals and operational handbooks provide the means for implementing Geneva Convention provisions, even where those provisions are unclear. While the media often still refer to the "Abu Ghraib scandal," we now know serious crimes were committed in several dozen detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guanta'namo Bay. According to the Pentagon's latest count, no fewer than 27 detainee deaths were criminal homicides. The C.I.A. has admitted to using water-boarding (near drowning), unmistakably a form of torture. And documents newly released under the Freedom of Information Act have confirmed some of the more extreme accounts of detainee abuse. In the meantime, one suspects those Abu Ghraib photos are being used by Al Qaeda and others as recruiting posters. The White House has treated these crimes in the manner of a tin-pot dictatorship. It has engaged in pseudo-hand-wringing, dog-and-pony investigations and lackluster criminal prosecutions that have concentrated on the "bad apples" at the bottom of the barrel and ignored those at the top. The connection between the official policies and the unofficial practices has yet to be fully investigated. Administration officials most responsible have gotten promotions and praise rather than the boot. One top official, now out of office, fully understood where the administration was leading us. The day after Alberto Gonzales sent his January 2002 memo to the president, Colin Powell submitted a stinging rebuke. He wrote that declaring the Geneva Conventions inapplicable to the Afghan conflict would "reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practice in supporting the Geneva Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and in general." And he warned that it would have "a high cost in terms of negative international reaction, with immediate adverse consequences for our conduct of foreign policy." Other dissenters are beginning to come out of the woodwork. Shortly after stepping down from his post as State Department legal advisor, William H. Taft IV told an audience at American University in March of this year: "It has been a continuing source of amazement and, I may add, considerable disappointment to me that...lawyers at the Department of Justice thought it was important to decide at that time that the Conventions did not apply to al Qaeda as a matter of law.... This unsought conclusion unhinged those responsible for the treatment of the detainees in Guanta'namo from the legal guidelines for interrogation of detainees reflected in the Conventions and embodied in the Army Field Manual for decades." Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to punish properly those responsible for war crimes will place captured American soldiers and civilians in future wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years have looked to the United States as a source of inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime have lost an important ally. The difficult task of promoting decent conduct in the world's myriad vicious little wars--wars that often affect U.S. interests--has now become even harder. The Bush administration, its moral claims aside, has given the protection of basic human dignity short shrift. Abraham Lincoln's legacy of a humane articulation of the laws of war has long served the interests of the United States. Americans can be genuinely proud of it. It is a legacy that with each feckless Pentagon investigation and half-hearted war crimes prosecution becomes more and more imperiled. James Ross is senior legal advisor for Human Rights Watch in New York. He attended military commission hearings at Guanta'namo Bay in November 2004. Copyright (c) 2005 by America Press, Inc. All Rights Reserved. For information about America, go to www.americamagazine.org. From thomas at flyingkettle.com Tue Aug 16 17:32:34 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Tue Aug 16 17:33:08 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] An interesting speculation? In-Reply-To: <027001c59f8f$2ab127c0$0400000a@PRAXIS> Message-ID: <43021522.21938.623AC@localhost> On 13 Aug 2005 at 8:42, in relation to my modest suggestion which might presage an economically viable future activity upon St. Helena, John Coyle wrote: > What a dreadful idea! Why is it a dreadful idea, to confine extremely dangerous prisoners in a place where they can't do anything wicked? What would you suggest as an alternative? > And where on earth do you get the view that STH has > a history of torture/humiliation of those confined there? I didn't advocate that - I only suggested that it might be deemed by our rulers to be (in some cases) a component of the package. There are arguments in favor as well as against. STH has indeed a long history of being used as a place to confine prisoners where they have no realistic prospect of escape or of succor from their co-conspirators. I merely put forward the notion that, if the "Warrant Error" continues in the way it shows every sign of doing, the UK and indeed other European countries may need a long-term facility of this type, and that St. Helena should be considered. Of course, other candidates would be Ascension, Tristan, and the Falklands. But I don't think it is realistic to say: > that, like everything else related to Saint Helena, is something for the > people of Saint Helena to decide. St. Helena is a British dependency, and such matters have never been left entirely up to the local people, anywhere. Of course it is proper to consult them, but in the end it is central government which decides, based upon a constellation of considerations, in which local wishes play a role, but not necessarily the major role. And John Vigor says: > Anyway, why wait for an airport and airliners that terrorist prisoners could > hijack? Because the large numbers of support personnel from outside who would be required (jailers, interrogators, translators, secret service people... ) would require periodic R&R off the island, and simply would not put up with the to-and-fro sea voyage. Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII From tmhughley at wcbcorps.com Tue Aug 16 17:42:05 2005 From: tmhughley at wcbcorps.com (Tessa M. Hughley) Date: Tue Aug 16 17:42:21 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: Thanks for the excellent article Paul! ........I hear St. Helena is having a very nice mild winter. How's the weather where you are?? Here in Portland after a very hot weekend we are enjoying a cool, grey morning. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of P. A. Koroluk Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:46 AM To: list@sthelena.se Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Dear List Members, Although I hesitate to contribute to the drift of discussion away from St. Helena, I thought this timely article might provide some useful background reference. Your humble servant, Paul Koroluk writing from Tokyo +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ America (americamagazine.org) Vol. 193 No. 4, August 15, 2005 Bush, Torture and Lincoln's Legacy By James Ross Being the only superpower means never having to say you're sorry. In the year since the first photos of humiliation and torture at Abu Ghraib prison were leaked, there has been a flurry of Pentagon studies, jump-started criminal investigations and disturbing new revelations in the media. Yet public attention has not translated into sustained public outcry. The Bush administration has been remarkably successful thus far in in its efforts to avoid paying a political price for policies that are destined to endanger U.S. soldiers in future wars and harm America's long-term foreign policy interests. An important reason for this muted outrage has been the administration's skill in disparaging the laws of armed conflict--that hoary body of international law that does not ban war, but seeks to minimize the suffering war invariably produces. The administration has sought to portray this law, particularly the Geneva Conventions of 1949, as harmful rather than helpful for protecting America's security. When the first detainees arrived at Guanta'namo Bay in January 2002, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, declared them all to be unlawful combatants who "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. The United States, he said, would "for the most part, treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the Geneva Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate." Later that month, then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales wrote to President Bush that the Geneva Convention provisions on questioning enemy prisoners were "obsolete" and argued, among other things, that rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Convention "[s]ubstantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal prosecution" of U.S. officials for war crimes. Over the objections of then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and military leaders, President Bush essentially adopted this line. On Feb. 7, 2002, he announced that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in military operations against Al Qaeda. Rumsfeld told journalists that day: "The reality is the set of facts that exist today with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not necessarily the set of facts that were considered when the Geneva Convention was fashioned." The administration's rejection of the Geneva Conventions was unlawful, unnecessary and ultimately led to the abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guanta'namo Bay. Under the Geneva Conventions, captured members of armed groups such as Al Qaeda are not entitled to prisoner-of-war status. They are nonetheless entitled to the basic protections afforded all persons taken into custody in a battle zone, including protection from torture and other ill treatment, a fair trial should they be charged with a crime and, in the case of civilian detainees, periodic review of the security rationale for their detention. The administration's policy opened the door for the bizarre legal theories put forward in the infamous "torture memos" drafted in 2002 and 2003. Besides nearly defining away the concept of torture, these memos claim that no law, international or domestic, bans the president, as commander in chief, from ordering torture. (By this reasoning, Saddam Hussein could lawfully order torture too.) Although the White House frequently repeated the mantra of "humane treatment" of detainees, the rejection of the Geneva Conventions and the torture memos' encouragement of unlawful practices meant that the pragmatic and legally grounded U.S. military regulations on interrogations could safely be ignored. Abraham Lincoln and General Orders 100 The Bush administration's attitude toward the laws of war is a radical departure from longstanding U.S. military practice. During the Korean War, the United States treated enemy soldiers in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, even though none of the protagonists had yet to ratify the treaties. In Vietnam, captured Viet Cong were held as prisoners of war even though the letter of the law did not require it. This is an old and noble tradition. David Hackett Fischer describes in his recent book, Washington's Crossing, how Gen. George Washington made sure that captured British and Hessian soldiers were treated humanely, even though the British often executed captured Continentals. Washington was not just being generous: he understood that such treatment would over time best serve the interests of American soldiers. Surprisingly little attention has been paid to President Bush's--and everyone else's--most admired president, Abraham Lincoln, on the laws of war. Despite the grave threat the Civil War posed to the nation, Lincoln recognized the value of broadly recognized rules of war that promote restraint and humanistic principles. By late 1862, the bloody day at Antietam and the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation had totally changed the nature of the war. In Bruce Catton's words, "The war now was a war to preserve the Union and to end slavery.... It could not stop until one side or the other was made incapable of fighting any longer; hence, by the standards of that day, it was going to be an all-out war--hard, ruthless, vicious.... Lincoln recognized that such a conflict required greater attention to war's customary rules, not less. First was the problem of the legal status of captured Confederate soldiers. Lincoln did not want to recognize the rebellion of the Southern states as legitimate, nor was it desirable or feasible to label all Johnny Rebs as traitors subject to execution. He needed a way to treat captured Confederate soldiers as prisoners of war without suggesting that the Confederate States of America was a lawful state. Second, the hyper-expansion of the U.S. military from a peacetime force of 13,000 professional soldiers to multiple armies of several hundred thousand volunteers and conscripts placed huge burdens on military discipline. In northern Virginia and other areas under federal occupation, vandalism by Union forces was rampant. Whereas the old army could slowly familiarize new recruits with the traditional laws of war, the Civil War army, whose officers were often as green as its foot soldiers, required a clearly written set of rules of practical value. Lincoln turned for advice to an e'migre' legal scholar, Francis Lieber, at Columbia College (now University) in New York City. Born in Berlin, Lieber as a teenager fought and was severely wounded during the Waterloo campaign. Prussian political repression brought him to the United States in 1827. He taught for many years in South Carolina, keeping quiet his strong abolitionist views until he transferred to Columbia's faculty in 1857. More than his European upbringing, Lieber's views on the laws of war reflected his life in America: two of his sons fought for the Union, one losing an arm at Fort Donelson. His eldest son, raised in the South, joined the Confederate ranks and was mortally wounded at the Battle of Williamsburg in May 1862. In a letter to Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, Lieber wrote: "I knew war as [a] soldier, as a wounded man in the hospital, as an observing citizen, but I had yet to learn it in the phase of a father searching for his wounded son, walking through the hospitals, peering in the ambulances." Contrary to prevailing attitudes in the North, Lieber urged that on humanitarian grounds Union forces grant the privileges of belligerency to Confederate forces. This allowed Lincoln to dodge the thorny question of appearing to recognize the Confederacy while providing rebel soldiers the protections then normally due prisoners of war. (Bush appeared to be adopting this approach when he called for the humane treatment of Guanta'namo detainees, but the practice never measured up to his words.) This humanistic strain runs through Lieber's Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, which President Lincoln approved on April 24, 1863, as General Orders No. 100. The Lieber code, as it is now known, was the first recognized codification of the laws of war in modern times. As Lieber noted at the time, "nothing of the kind exists in any language. I had no guide, no ground-work, no text-book." Its 157 rules made a lasting place for Lieber--and the United States--in the development of the laws of war. Lieber was no softie when it came to warfare. While believing that the final aim of war was to re-establish the state of peace, he argued that the best way to achieve this was through short, decisive wars. As Article 29 of Lieber's code states, "the more vigorously wars are pursued, the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief." This thinking underlines U.S. war-fighting doctrine today. The Lieber code has been criticized for its reliance on the doctrine of "military necessity," which permits often egregious practices so long as a commander has a military justification, an all-too-handy escape clause. But Lieber's conception of military necessity actually placed limits on an army's actions where previously none existed. Thus pre-Lieber code armies could loot and destroy civilian property at will, even when there was no military need for doing so. Other Lieber code provisions considered barbaric today--such as the starvation of besieged towns--were part and parcel of 19th-century warfare and have since been prohibited. Such caveats aside, the Lieber code consolidated important humanizing elements of warfare. Of particular note are Lieber's, and ultimately Lincoln's, views on the treatment of prisoners. Article 16 of the code boldly states: "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions." All forms of cruelty against prisoners are prohibited. Even the code's broad acceptance of military necessity does not provide a justification for torture. General Orders No. 100 was distributed to the Union armies in the field, and the standards set by the code seem to have been generally observed by both sides. At the close of the war, the code's precepts figured in the debate over Sherman's destructive "March to the Sea," and in the trial and conviction of Captain Henry Wirtz, commandant of the notorious Confederate prison camp at Andersonville in Georgia. The major powers of Europe quickly recognized the value of codified laws of war, and Lieber's code became the model for Prussia and other armies on the continent. Ultimately this American vision of warfare and the treatment of prisoners became the basis for the major international treaties, namely the Hague Regulations at the turn of the 20th century and the Geneva Conventions at mid-century. Geneva's strict prohibitions on torture and other cruel treatment can be traced through Lieber's own uncompromising language. Pooh-Poohing the Geneva Conventions The Bush administration, by openly disregarding the laws of war in its treatment of detainees, has undermined an important American tradition. Even after the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos, Secretary Rumsfeld continued to pooh-pooh the Geneva Conventions. On NBC's "Today" program on May 5, 2004, he explained that the conventions "did not apply precisely" but were "basic rules" for handling prisoners. Visiting Abu Ghraib a week later, Rumsfeld remarked: "Geneva doesn't say what you do when you get up in the morning" In fact, the U.S. armed forces have devoted considerable energy over the years to making the Geneva Conventions fully operational among military personnel. Various U.S. military field manuals and operational handbooks provide the means for implementing Geneva Convention provisions, even where those provisions are unclear. While the media often still refer to the "Abu Ghraib scandal," we now know serious crimes were committed in several dozen detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guanta'namo Bay. According to the Pentagon's latest count, no fewer than 27 detainee deaths were criminal homicides. The C.I.A. has admitted to using water-boarding (near drowning), unmistakably a form of torture. And documents newly released under the Freedom of Information Act have confirmed some of the more extreme accounts of detainee abuse. In the meantime, one suspects those Abu Ghraib photos are being used by Al Qaeda and others as recruiting posters. The White House has treated these crimes in the manner of a tin-pot dictatorship. It has engaged in pseudo-hand-wringing, dog-and-pony investigations and lackluster criminal prosecutions that have concentrated on the "bad apples" at the bottom of the barrel and ignored those at the top. The connection between the official policies and the unofficial practices has yet to be fully investigated. Administration officials most responsible have gotten promotions and praise rather than the boot. One top official, now out of office, fully understood where the administration was leading us. The day after Alberto Gonzales sent his January 2002 memo to the president, Colin Powell submitted a stinging rebuke. He wrote that declaring the Geneva Conventions inapplicable to the Afghan conflict would "reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practice in supporting the Geneva Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and in general." And he warned that it would have "a high cost in terms of negative international reaction, with immediate adverse consequences for our conduct of foreign policy." Other dissenters are beginning to come out of the woodwork. Shortly after stepping down from his post as State Department legal advisor, William H. Taft IV told an audience at American University in March of this year: "It has been a continuing source of amazement and, I may add, considerable disappointment to me that...lawyers at the Department of Justice thought it was important to decide at that time that the Conventions did not apply to al Qaeda as a matter of law.... This unsought conclusion unhinged those responsible for the treatment of the detainees in Guanta'namo from the legal guidelines for interrogation of detainees reflected in the Conventions and embodied in the Army Field Manual for decades." Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to punish properly those responsible for war crimes will place captured American soldiers and civilians in future wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years have looked to the United States as a source of inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime have lost an important ally. The difficult task of promoting decent conduct in the world's myriad vicious little wars--wars that often affect U.S. interests--has now become even harder. The Bush administration, its moral claims aside, has given the protection of basic human dignity short shrift. Abraham Lincoln's legacy of a humane articulation of the laws of war has long served the interests of the United States. Americans can be genuinely proud of it. It is a legacy that with each feckless Pentagon investigation and half-hearted war crimes prosecution becomes more and more imperiled. James Ross is senior legal advisor for Human Rights Watch in New York. He attended military commission hearings at Guanta'namo Bay in November 2004. Copyright (c) 2005 by America Press, Inc. All Rights Reserved. For information about America, go to www.americamagazine.org. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From sea_dragons at earthlink.net Tue Aug 16 18:35:37 2005 From: sea_dragons at earthlink.net (Christopher D. Lewis) Date: Tue Aug 16 18:35:44 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was An interesting speculation?) In-Reply-To: <43021522.21938.623AC@localhost> References: <43021522.21938.623AC@localhost> Message-ID: <6D2D546D-5026-455E-B9A6-D1A0E884D49D@earthlink.net> Dear St. Helena Subscribers, I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as a "flame war". Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected foreign terrorist incarceration policies. At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply unsubscribe. Good luck, Chris On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Thomas Goodey wrote: > On 13 Aug 2005 at 8:42, in relation to my modest suggestion which > might > presage an economically viable future activity upon St. Helena, > John Coyle > wrote: > > >> What a dreadful idea! >> > > Why is it a dreadful idea, to confine extremely dangerous prisoners > in a > place where they can't do anything wicked? What would you suggest > as an > alternative? > > >> And where on earth do you get the view that STH has >> a history of torture/humiliation of those confined there? >> > > I didn't advocate that - I only suggested that it might be deemed > by our > rulers to be (in some cases) a component of the package. There are > arguments in favor as well as against. > > STH has indeed a long history of being used as a place to confine > prisoners where they have no realistic prospect of escape or of succor > from their co-conspirators. I merely put forward the notion that, > if the > "Warrant Error" continues in the way it shows every sign of doing, > the UK > and indeed other European countries may need a long-term facility > of this > type, and that St. Helena should be considered. Of course, other > candidates would be Ascension, Tristan, and the Falklands. > > But I don't think it is realistic to say: > > >> that, like everything else related to Saint Helena, is something >> for the >> people of Saint Helena to decide. >> > > St. Helena is a British dependency, and such matters have never > been left > entirely up to the local people, anywhere. Of course it is proper to > consult them, but in the end it is central government which > decides, based > upon a constellation of considerations, in which local wishes play > a role, > but not necessarily the major role. > > And John Vigor says: > > >> Anyway, why wait for an airport and airliners that terrorist >> prisoners could >> hijack? >> > > Because the large numbers of support personnel from outside who > would be > required (jailers, interrogators, translators, secret service > people... ) > would require periodic R&R off the island, and simply would not put up > with the to-and-fro sea voyage. > > Thomas Goodey > > ********************************************************* > The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a > problem not only destroys its unity, but also > increases markedly both the time necessary for, > and the actual personal danger involved in, its > solution. > ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII > > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > From cranham.j at virgin.net Tue Aug 16 18:57:33 2005 From: cranham.j at virgin.net (John Cranham) Date: Tue Aug 16 18:57:54 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was Aninteresting speculation?) In-Reply-To: <6D2D546D-5026-455E-B9A6-D1A0E884D49D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Chris, I am with you on this. It's very boring and irrelevant. John -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was Aninteresting speculation?) Dear St. Helena Subscribers, I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as a "flame war". Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected foreign terrorist incarceration policies. At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply unsubscribe. Good luck, Chris > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From lloydscott32 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 19:04:03 2005 From: lloydscott32 at hotmail.com (LLOYD SCOTT) Date: Tue Aug 16 19:04:14 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting speculation?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/8c48c71b/attachment.htm From peershahul at hotmail.com Tue Aug 16 19:06:27 2005 From: peershahul at hotmail.com (SHAHUL) Date: Tue Aug 16 19:07:09 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting speculation?) References: Message-ID: Me too. Its a never ending debate. Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss something good for the island. Rgds Shahul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cranham" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting speculation?) > Chris, > I am with you on this. > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the > South Atlantic(Eng) > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. > This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's > current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as > a "flame war". > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email > address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, > and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply > unsubscribe. > Good luck, > Chris > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > From cranham.j at virgin.net Tue Aug 16 19:17:54 2005 From: cranham.j at virgin.net (John Cranham) Date: Tue Aug 16 19:18:10 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] This is interesting Message-ID: This cruise looks interesting. Brief stops in Namibia, Ascension, Canary Isles, Portugal and then home to Portland. Plus a week in St Helena and as long as you like in South Africa. My sort of holiday, John http://www.rms-st-helena.com/index.php?id=58 From tmhughley at wcbcorps.com Tue Aug 16 19:41:53 2005 From: tmhughley at wcbcorps.com (Tessa M. Hughley) Date: Tue Aug 16 19:42:06 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) Message-ID: Since no one bit with my weather topic (in an effort to change to subject that is...), there is an interesting speculation related to St. Helena, taken from the St. Helena Herald, 12th August, 2005. A gentleman in Canada's Northwest Territories is suggesting establishing the Napoleon Bonaparte - St. Helena World Insitute of Study (or some similar title). He suggests such an institute would establish associations with well know universities in Europe, the US and elsewhere, staff with well know Napoleonic scholars for one year renewable terms, and then 12-24 graduate students of Napoleonic history would pay to come to study there. He says "A small economy's dependence on tourism can be a doubledged sword and St. Helenians will want to be cautious as to the type of tourism they seek to attract." (I agree completely) He goes on to say, "The world does not need another 5-star hotel with swimming pool, casino and golf course. Nor does St. Helena have to turn itself into one. St. Helena has the good fortune to be in a league of its own. No other island in the world can compete with St. Helena and its legacy of Napoleon." The entire letter is brilliant! If you would like to read more please see the August 12th issue of the Herald. (www.news.co.sh) and Mr. Weir, if you're watching these list, please join us. Tessa Hughley BPM Senior Living Company 503.595.3083 (direct) 503.274.4685 (fax) 1120 NW Couch Street, Suite 730 Portland, OR 97209 -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of SHAHUL Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:06 AM To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) Me too. Its a never ending debate. Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss something good for the island. Rgds Shahul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cranham" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting speculation?) > Chris, > I am with you on this. > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the > South Atlantic(Eng) > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. > This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's > current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as > a "flame war". > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email > address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, > and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply > unsubscribe. > Good luck, > Chris > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From nanystrom at yahoo.com Tue Aug 16 22:58:25 2005 From: nanystrom at yahoo.com (Nissa Nystrom) Date: Tue Aug 16 22:58:37 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050816205825.3498.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> An interesting and seemingly feasible idea for further developing the economy and reputation of St. Helena! It spurns positive use of the history the island holds. Thanks for sharing Tessa! --- "Tessa M. Hughley" wrote: > Since no one bit with my weather topic (in an effort > to change to subject that is...), there is an > interesting speculation related to St. Helena, taken > from the St. Helena Herald, 12th August, 2005. > > A gentleman in Canada's Northwest Territories is > suggesting establishing the Napoleon Bonaparte - St. > Helena World Insitute of Study (or some similar > title). He suggests such an institute would > establish associations with well know universities > in Europe, the US and elsewhere, staff with well > know Napoleonic scholars for one year renewable > terms, and then 12-24 graduate students of > Napoleonic history would pay to come to study there. > > > He says "A small economy's dependence on tourism can > be a doubledged sword and St. Helenians will want to > be cautious as to the type of tourism they seek to > attract." (I agree completely) He goes on to say, > "The world does not need another 5-star hotel with > swimming pool, casino and golf course. Nor does St. > Helena have to turn itself into one. St. Helena has > the good fortune to be in a league of its own. No > other island in the world can compete with St. > Helena and its legacy of Napoleon." > > The entire letter is brilliant! If you would like > to read more please see the August 12th issue of the > Herald. (www.news.co.sh) and Mr. Weir, if you're > watching these list, please join us. > > > > > > Tessa Hughley > BPM Senior Living Company > 503.595.3083 (direct) > 503.274.4685 (fax) > 1120 NW Couch Street, Suite 730 > Portland, OR 97209 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se > [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > Behalf Of SHAHUL > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:06 AM > To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South > Atlantic(Eng) > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > Me too. > Its a never ending debate. > Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss > something good for the island. > Rgds > Shahul. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Cranham" > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South > Atlantic(Eng)" > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > elsewhere > (wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > > Chris, > > I am with you on this. > > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > > > John > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se > [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena > - The Island in the > > South Atlantic(Eng) > > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic > debate elsewhere (was > > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena > list to be > > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the > merits/demerits of US policy > > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist > operations, etc. > > This discussion, which never had much grounding in > the island's > > current status or the local law, is pretty easily > recognizable now as > > a "flame war". > > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has > seen the email > > address of the interested parties and can contact > them off-list. > > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create > groups and run lists, > > and you will have no trouble creating a list for > debating suspected > > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on > this formerly mostly > > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to > sacrificing my > > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one > will simply > > unsubscribe. > > Good luck, > > Chris > > > > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List > >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: > >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm > mail. > >> > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm > mail. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm > mail. > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mikshdik at ozemail.com.au Wed Aug 17 07:03:19 2005 From: mikshdik at ozemail.com.au (Mike Shaddick) Date: Wed Aug 17 07:06:06 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: <1f9.fe79f23.3032e369@aol.com> References: <1f9.fe79f23.3032e369@aol.com> Message-ID: >- It is only a matter of time before a rouge nation is able to make one; There you go, being racist again! >An eye for an eye makes us all blind. Mahatma Ghandi said that and he never even went to St Helena. The island certainly has no need of a concentration camp, financial blandishments notwithstanding. From lstrom at drizzle.com Mon Aug 15 02:20:27 2005 From: lstrom at drizzle.com (Leslie Strom) Date: Wed Aug 17 09:12:27 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would isolation do for distance? I'm sure the Sovereign Principality of Sealand could use an anchor industry...! http://www.sealandgov.com/ At 6:21 PM -0500 8/14/05, Gregory Kessler wrote: >Setting aside the gitmo debate and all that goes with it. I have >thought for many years that the UK needed an off shore, far away >prison for members of the IRA and other home grown terrorists. I am >not speaking of St. Helena but somewhere. Many of the problems >associated with IRA prisoners could have been avoided through simple >distance, not turture, just distance. Seeing as how events in >Northern Ireland seem to be on the mend, the point is moot. > > > -- ****************** Leslie Strom mailto:LStrom@drizzle.com iChatAV (AIM) lesliestrom Yahoo Messenger lstrom3 cellophone, Seattle - 206-920-6260 http://www.getlostmagazine.com From Lewis at Alumni.Duke.edu Sat Aug 13 18:03:01 2005 From: Lewis at Alumni.Duke.edu (Christopher D. Lewis) Date: Wed Aug 17 09:12:43 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please end off-topic thread In-Reply-To: <1123948424.13009.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <15c.564c4c0c.302f5ecb@aol.com> <1123948424.13009.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2C7C9E37-228A-41C3-B7B0-B06487ADBBE8@Alumni.Duke.edu> Dear List Subscribers, Regardless one's decision how completely to credit various stories about the US base in Cuba, or the appropriate fate of persons thought to be involved in organized evil (or found near it), this thread appears appropriate to a different list entirely. For this reason I have resisted commenting on what I believe are the differences between St. Helena and Cuba with respect to holding individuals declared to be enemies. While germane to the thread, it is irrelevant to this list. Perhaps people interested in this can email one another directly, or set up a list for its discussion. Best regards, Chris Texas On Aug 13, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Steven W. Vest wrote: > Although I would prefer it to be worded differently, Guantanamo has > been > a perfect place for the terrorists to be kept. As for torture and > humiliation, that is idiotic. Yes, there are techniques used to > extract > information, but within limits. If not, we are no better than the > terrorists that we claim to hate. > > As for Saint Helena being used to detain terrorists, that, like > everything else related to Saint Helena, is something for the > people of > Saint Helena to decide. It is the same view that I have with the > airport. I know a lot of us would prefer Saint Helena to be maintained > as an isolated little world that we may some day get a chance to > visit, > but the bottom line is that the people that have to live there should > make it into what they want it to be. > > As for banning the person the sent the other e-mail, that seems > ridiculous. I am not sure why Burk feels threatened by this, but it is > just someone stating an opinion. > > I would say that the topics posted here should not stray from Saint > Helena too far, but as long as someone doesn't spam the list with > numerous off topic e-mails, I do not see the harm. I am not scared of > others opinions and I do not want to see theme censored. > > God bless, > Steven W. Vest > Robbins, North Carolina, USA > > > From: Herbote@aol.com > Date: August 13, 2005 9:33:47 AM CDT > To: list@sthelena.se > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > Reply-To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\ > (Eng\)" > > > > I think that comment is not justified at all, and it should not be > commented with this St Helena discussion list. > We have to accept (lot of?) some Americans are sick about > patriotism and every country has the right to make the own > mistakes, although others have to pay the bill. But if someone is > promoting with this list people should be shoot, I feel this "proud > American" has cancelled his own membership with this list and the > list mediator should think about to delete his membership. > > Burkhard Herbote, Germany > > In einer eMail vom 13.08.2005 16:05:31 Westeurop?ische Normalzeit > schreibt rroach@indy.rr.com: > In response to Mr. Thomas Goodey. > > As an American, I see Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as the ideal spot for > persons who > do not deserve "lawyers." They do not come under the Geneva > Conventions as > Prisoners of War. In fact they should be shot (the torture and > humiliation > that I recommend). The UK SHOULD have its own version of Guantanamo. > Please be knowledgeable before you speak ill of my country. > > Ralph Roach > Indianapolis. Indiana, USA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:00 AM > Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6 > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From csmatthews at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 17 09:54:44 2005 From: csmatthews at ntlworld.com (csmatthews@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed Aug 17 09:55:00 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Re: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 13 Message-ID: <20050817075444.HOZQ12116.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Oh dear - I joined this list as a great lover of St Helena and its people. Like all such lists it has been hi-jacked by single issue fanatics. At least this time the issue isn't the European Union - a pre-occupation at some point on most lists that I have subscribed to. The whole issue of how St Helena should market itself post-airport is very interesting. As a person who has never seen the attraction of Napoleon and things Napoleonic I am unconvinced that he will ever be more than a side order on the SH menu. My most enduring memories of the island are its beautiful walks but I doubt that these could survive mass tourism. There are no beaches. The 5 star hotel and golf course scenario may be inevitable. Given the lack of a clear single market, perhaps SH needs a string of niche markets; the SH Hilton for those in need of winter sun, golf for those fed up with the Algarve, walking and activity holidays , ornithological breaks and sea angling all spring to mind. I suppose there's even room for a couple of dozen of Napoleon's disciples. Its going to be very interesting to see what happens. Clive > sqq\`-*+*-++++// From: list-request@sthelena.se > Date: 2005/08/17 Wed AM 08:13:21 BST > To: list@sthelena.se > Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 13 > > Send List mailing list submissions to > list@sthelena.se > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > list-request@sthelena.se > > You can reach the person managing the list at > list-owner@sthelena.se > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of List digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. RE: Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting > speculation?) (LLOYD SCOTT) > 2. Re: Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting > speculation?) (SHAHUL) > 3. This is interesting (John Cranham) > 4. RE: Please take off-topic debate elsewhere(wasAninteresting > speculation?) (Tessa M. Hughley) > 5. RE: Please take off-topic debate elsewhere(wasAninteresting > speculation?) (Nissa Nystrom) > 6. Re: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Mike Shaddick) > 7. Re: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Leslie Strom) > 8. Re: Please end off-topic thread (Christopher D. Lewis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:04:03 +1000 > From: "LLOYD SCOTT" > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere > (wasAninteresting speculation?) > To: list@sthelena.se > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/8c48c71b/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:06:27 +0300 > From: "SHAHUL" > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere > (wasAninteresting speculation?) > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Me too. > Its a never ending debate. > Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss something good for the island. > Rgds > Shahul. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Cranham" > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere > (wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > > Chris, > > I am with you on this. > > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > > > John > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the > > South Atlantic(Eng) > > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was > > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be > > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy > > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. > > This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's > > current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as > > a "flame war". > > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email > > address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. > > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, > > and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected > > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly > > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my > > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply > > unsubscribe. > > Good luck, > > Chris > > > > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List > >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: > >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > >> > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:17:54 +0100 > From: "John Cranham" > Subject: [STHELENA] This is interesting > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > This cruise looks interesting. > Brief stops in Namibia, Ascension, Canary Isles, Portugal and then > home to Portland. > Plus a week in St Helena and as long as you like in South Africa. > > My sort of holiday, > > John > > http://www.rms-st-helena.com/index.php?id=58 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:41:53 -0700 > From: "Tessa M. Hughley" > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Since no one bit with my weather topic (in an effort to change to subject that is...), there is an interesting speculation related to St. Helena, taken from the St. Helena Herald, 12th August, 2005. > > A gentleman in Canada's Northwest Territories is suggesting establishing the Napoleon Bonaparte - St. Helena World Insitute of Study (or some similar title). He suggests such an institute would establish associations with well know universities in Europe, the US and elsewhere, staff with well know Napoleonic scholars for one year renewable terms, and then 12-24 graduate students of Napoleonic history would pay to come to study there. > > He says "A small economy's dependence on tourism can be a doubledged sword and St. Helenians will want to be cautious as to the type of tourism they seek to attract." (I agree completely) He goes on to say, "The world does not need another 5-star hotel with swimming pool, casino and golf course. Nor does St. Helena have to turn itself into one. St. Helena has the good fortune to be in a league of its own. No other island in the world can compete with St. Helena and its legacy of Napoleon." > > The entire letter is brilliant! If you would like to read more please see the August 12th issue of the Herald. (www.news.co.sh) and Mr. Weir, if you're watching these list, please join us. > > > > > > Tessa Hughley > BPM Senior Living Company > 503.595.3083 (direct) > 503.274.4685 (fax) > 1120 NW Couch Street, Suite 730 > Portland, OR 97209 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > Behalf Of SHAHUL > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:06 AM > To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > Me too. > Its a never ending debate. > Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss something good for the island. > Rgds > Shahul. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Cranham" > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere > (wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > > Chris, > > I am with you on this. > > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > > > John > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the > > South Atlantic(Eng) > > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was > > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be > > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy > > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. > > This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's > > current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as > > a "flame war". > > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email > > address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. > > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, > > and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected > > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly > > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my > > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply > > unsubscribe. > > Good luck, > > Chris > > > > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List > >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: > >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > >> > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: Nissa Nystrom > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: <20050816205825.3498.qmail@web54503.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > An interesting and seemingly feasible idea for further > developing the economy and reputation of St. Helena! > It spurns positive use of the history the island > holds. Thanks for sharing Tessa! > > --- "Tessa M. Hughley" wrote: > > > Since no one bit with my weather topic (in an effort > > to change to subject that is...), there is an > > interesting speculation related to St. Helena, taken > > from the St. Helena Herald, 12th August, 2005. > > > > A gentleman in Canada's Northwest Territories is > > suggesting establishing the Napoleon Bonaparte - St. > > Helena World Insitute of Study (or some similar > > title). He suggests such an institute would > > establish associations with well know universities > > in Europe, the US and elsewhere, staff with well > > know Napoleonic scholars for one year renewable > > terms, and then 12-24 graduate students of > > Napoleonic history would pay to come to study there. > > > > > > He says "A small economy's dependence on tourism can > > be a doubledged sword and St. Helenians will want to > > be cautious as to the type of tourism they seek to > > attract." (I agree completely) He goes on to say, > > "The world does not need another 5-star hotel with > > swimming pool, casino and golf course. Nor does St. > > Helena have to turn itself into one. St. Helena has > > the good fortune to be in a league of its own. No > > other island in the world can compete with St. > > Helena and its legacy of Napoleon." > > > > The entire letter is brilliant! If you would like > > to read more please see the August 12th issue of the > > Herald. (www.news.co.sh) and Mr. Weir, if you're > > watching these list, please join us. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tessa Hughley > > BPM Senior Living Company > > 503.595.3083 (direct) > > 503.274.4685 (fax) > > 1120 NW Couch Street, Suite 730 > > Portland, OR 97209 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se > > [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > > Behalf Of SHAHUL > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:06 AM > > To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South > > Atlantic(Eng) > > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > > elsewhere(wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > > > > Me too. > > Its a never ending debate. > > Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss > > something good for the island. > > Rgds > > Shahul. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Cranham" > > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South > > Atlantic(Eng)" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM > > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate > > elsewhere > > (wasAninteresting speculation?) > > > > > > > Chris, > > > I am with you on this. > > > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > > > > > John > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se > > [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > > > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > > > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > > > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena > > - The Island in the > > > South Atlantic(Eng) > > > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic > > debate elsewhere (was > > > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > > > > > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > > > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena > > list to be > > > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the > > merits/demerits of US policy > > > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist > > operations, etc. > > > This discussion, which never had much grounding in > > the island's > > > current status or the local law, is pretty easily > > recognizable now as > > > a "flame war". > > > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has > > seen the email > > > address of the interested parties and can contact > > them off-list. > > > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create > > groups and run lists, > > > and you will have no trouble creating a list for > > debating suspected > > > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > > > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on > > this formerly mostly > > > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to > > sacrificing my > > > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one > > will simply > > > unsubscribe. > > > Good luck, > > > Chris > > > > > > > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List > > >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm > > mail. > > >> > > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm > > mail. > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm > > mail. > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:03:19 +1000 > From: Mike Shaddick > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >- It is only a matter of time before a rouge nation is able to make one; > > There you go, being racist again! > > >An eye for an eye makes us all blind. > > Mahatma Ghandi said that and he never even went to St Helena. The island certainly has no need of a concentration camp, financial blandishments notwithstanding. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:20:27 -0700 > From: Leslie Strom > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Would isolation do for distance? I'm sure the Sovereign Principality > of Sealand could use an anchor industry...! > > http://www.sealandgov.com/ > > > > > > At 6:21 PM -0500 8/14/05, Gregory Kessler wrote: > >Setting aside the gitmo debate and all that goes with it. I have > >thought for many years that the UK needed an off shore, far away > >prison for members of the IRA and other home grown terrorists. I am > >not speaking of St. Helena but somewhere. Many of the problems > >associated with IRA prisoners could have been avoided through simple > >distance, not turture, just distance. Seeing as how events in > >Northern Ireland seem to be on the mend, the point is moot. > > > > > > > > -- > ****************** > Leslie Strom > mailto:LStrom@drizzle.com > iChatAV (AIM) lesliestrom Yahoo Messenger lstrom3 > cellophone, Seattle - 206-920-6260 > http://www.getlostmagazine.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:03:01 -0500 > From: "Christopher D. Lewis" > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please end off-topic thread > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: <2C7C9E37-228A-41C3-B7B0-B06487ADBBE8@Alumni.Duke.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Dear List Subscribers, > Regardless one's decision how completely to credit various > stories about the US base in Cuba, or the appropriate fate of persons > thought to be involved in organized evil (or found near it), this > thread appears appropriate to a different list entirely. For this > reason I have resisted commenting on what I believe are the > differences between St. Helena and Cuba with respect to holding > individuals declared to be enemies. While germane to the thread, it > is irrelevant to this list. > Perhaps people interested in this can email one another > directly, or set up a list for its discussion. > Best regards, > Chris > Texas > > On Aug 13, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Steven W. Vest wrote: > > > Although I would prefer it to be worded differently, Guantanamo has > > been > > a perfect place for the terrorists to be kept. As for torture and > > humiliation, that is idiotic. Yes, there are techniques used to > > extract > > information, but within limits. If not, we are no better than the > > terrorists that we claim to hate. > > > > As for Saint Helena being used to detain terrorists, that, like > > everything else related to Saint Helena, is something for the > > people of > > Saint Helena to decide. It is the same view that I have with the > > airport. I know a lot of us would prefer Saint Helena to be maintained > > as an isolated little world that we may some day get a chance to > > visit, > > but the bottom line is that the people that have to live there should > > make it into what they want it to be. > > > > As for banning the person the sent the other e-mail, that seems > > ridiculous. I am not sure why Burk feels threatened by this, but it is > > just someone stating an opinion. > > > > I would say that the topics posted here should not stray from Saint > > Helena too far, but as long as someone doesn't spam the list with > > numerous off topic e-mails, I do not see the harm. I am not scared of > > others opinions and I do not want to see theme censored. > > > > God bless, > > Steven W. Vest > > Robbins, North Carolina, USA > > > > > > From: Herbote@aol.com > > Date: August 13, 2005 9:33:47 AM CDT > > To: list@sthelena.se > > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > > Reply-To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\ > > (Eng\)" > > > > > > > > I think that comment is not justified at all, and it should not be > > commented with this St Helena discussion list. > > We have to accept (lot of?) some Americans are sick about > > patriotism and every country has the right to make the own > > mistakes, although others have to pay the bill. But if someone is > > promoting with this list people should be shoot, I feel this "proud > > American" has cancelled his own membership with this list and the > > list mediator should think about to delete his membership. > > > > Burkhard Herbote, Germany > > > > In einer eMail vom 13.08.2005 16:05:31 Westeurop?ische Normalzeit > > schreibt rroach@indy.rr.com: > > In response to Mr. Thomas Goodey. > > > > As an American, I see Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as the ideal spot for > > persons who > > do not deserve "lawyers." They do not come under the Geneva > > Conventions as > > Prisoners of War. In fact they should be shot (the torture and > > humiliation > > that I recommend). The UK SHOULD have its own version of Guantanamo. > > Please be knowledgeable before you speak ill of my country. > > > > Ralph Roach > > Indianapolis. Indiana, USA > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:00 AM > > Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6 > > > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List mailing list > List@sthelena.se > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > > > End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 13 > ************************************ > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From raydop at yahoo.com Thu Aug 18 01:53:00 2005 From: raydop at yahoo.com (Raymond Dopmeyer) Date: Thu Aug 18 01:53:15 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050817235300.26566.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> St. Helena, being very close to the Equator, I imagine would have a very nice mild winter. Here in the United States of America (northern hemisphere) we are having summer. I am in Minnesota where it is not very hot at the moment. You say you are in Portland; is that in Oregon or Maine? Raymond Dopmeyer, raydop@yahoo.com "Tessa M. Hughley" wrote: Thanks for the excellent article Paul! ........I hear St. Helena is having a very nice mild winter. How's the weather where you are?? Here in Portland after a very hot weekend we are enjoying a cool, grey morning. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of P. A. Koroluk Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:46 AM To: list@sthelena.se Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Dear List Members, Although I hesitate to contribute to the drift of discussion away from St. Helena, I thought this timely article might provide some useful background reference. Your humble servant, Paul Koroluk writing from Tokyo +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ America (americamagazine.org) Vol. 193 No. 4, August 15, 2005 Bush, Torture and Lincoln's Legacy By James Ross Being the only superpower means never having to say you're sorry. In the year since the first photos of humiliation and torture at Abu Ghraib prison were leaked, there has been a flurry of Pentagon studies, jump-started criminal investigations and disturbing new revelations in the media. Yet public attention has not translated into sustained public outcry. The Bush administration has been remarkably successful thus far in in its efforts to avoid paying a political price for policies that are destined to endanger U.S. soldiers in future wars and harm America's long-term foreign policy interests. An important reason for this muted outrage has been the administration's skill in disparaging the laws of armed conflict--that hoary body of international law that does not ban war, but seeks to minimize the suffering war invariably produces. The administration has sought to portray this law, particularly the Geneva Conventions of 1949, as harmful rather than helpful for protecting America's security. When the first detainees arrived at Guanta'namo Bay in January 2002, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, declared them all to be unlawful combatants who "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. The United States, he said, would "for the most part, treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the Geneva Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate." Later that month, then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales wrote to President Bush that the Geneva Convention provisions on questioning enemy prisoners were "obsolete" and argued, among other things, that rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Convention "[s]ubstantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal prosecution" of U.S. officials for war crimes. Over the objections of then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and military leaders, President Bush essentially adopted this line. On Feb. 7, 2002, he announced that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in military operations against Al Qaeda. Rumsfeld told journalists that day: "The reality is the set of facts that exist today with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not necessarily the set of facts that were considered when the Geneva Convention was fashioned." The administration's rejection of the Geneva Conventions was unlawful, unnecessary and ultimately led to the abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guanta'namo Bay. Under the Geneva Conventions, captured members of armed groups such as Al Qaeda are not entitled to prisoner-of-war status. They are nonetheless entitled to the basic protections afforded all persons taken into custody in a battle zone, including protection from torture and other ill treatment, a fair trial should they be charged with a crime and, in the case of civilian detainees, periodic review of the security rationale for their detention. The administration's policy opened the door for the bizarre legal theories put forward in the infamous "torture memos" drafted in 2002 and 2003. Besides nearly defining away the concept of torture, these memos claim that no law, international or domestic, bans the president, as commander in chief, from ordering torture. (By this reasoning, Saddam Hussein could lawfully order torture too.) Although the White House frequently repeated the mantra of "humane treatment" of detainees, the rejection of the Geneva Conventions and the torture memos' encouragement of unlawful practices meant that the pragmatic and legally grounded U.S. military regulations on interrogations could safely be ignored. Abraham Lincoln and General Orders 100 The Bush administration's attitude toward the laws of war is a radical departure from longstanding U.S. military practice. During the Korean War, the United States treated enemy soldiers in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, even though none of the protagonists had yet to ratify the treaties. In Vietnam, captured Viet Cong were held as prisoners of war even though the letter of the law did not require it. This is an old and noble tradition. David Hackett Fischer describes in his recent book, Washington's Crossing, how Gen. George Washington made sure that captured British and Hessian soldiers were treated humanely, even though the British often executed captured Continentals. Washington was not just being generous: he understood that such treatment would over time best serve the interests of American soldiers. Surprisingly little attention has been paid to President Bush's--and everyone else's--most admired president, Abraham Lincoln, on the laws of war. Despite the grave threat the Civil War posed to the nation, Lincoln recognized the value of broadly recognized rules of war that promote restraint and humanistic principles. By late 1862, the bloody day at Antietam and the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation had totally changed the nature of the war. In Bruce Catton's words, "The war now was a war to preserve the Union and to end slavery.... It could not stop until one side or the other was made incapable of fighting any longer; hence, by the standards of that day, it was going to be an all-out war--hard, ruthless, vicious.... Lincoln recognized that such a conflict required greater attention to war's customary rules, not less. First was the problem of the legal status of captured Confederate soldiers. Lincoln did not want to recognize the rebellion of the Southern states as legitimate, nor was it desirable or feasible to label all Johnny Rebs as traitors subject to execution. He needed a way to treat captured Confederate soldiers as prisoners of war without suggesting that the Confederate States of America was a lawful state. Second, the hyper-expansion of the U.S. military from a peacetime force of 13,000 professional soldiers to multiple armies of several hundred thousand volunteers and conscripts placed huge burdens on military discipline. In northern Virginia and other areas under federal occupation, vandalism by Union forces was rampant. Whereas the old army could slowly familiarize new recruits with the traditional laws of war, the Civil War army, whose officers were often as green as its foot soldiers, required a clearly written set of rules of practical value. Lincoln turned for advice to an e'migre' legal scholar, Francis Lieber, at Columbia College (now University) in New York City. Born in Berlin, Lieber as a teenager fought and was severely wounded during the Waterloo campaign. Prussian political repression brought him to the United States in 1827. He taught for many years in South Carolina, keeping quiet his strong abolitionist views until he transferred to Columbia's faculty in 1857. More than his European upbringing, Lieber's views on the laws of war reflected his life in America: two of his sons fought for the Union, one losing an arm at Fort Donelson. His eldest son, raised in the South, joined the Confederate ranks and was mortally wounded at the Battle of Williamsburg in May 1862. In a letter to Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, Lieber wrote: "I knew war as [a] soldier, as a wounded man in the hospital, as an observing citizen, but I had yet to learn it in the phase of a father searching for his wounded son, walking through the hospitals, peering in the ambulances." Contrary to prevailing attitudes in the North, Lieber urged that on humanitarian grounds Union forces grant the privileges of belligerency to Confederate forces. This allowed Lincoln to dodge the thorny question of appearing to recognize the Confederacy while providing rebel soldiers the protections then normally due prisoners of war. (Bush appeared to be adopting this approach when he called for the humane treatment of Guanta'namo detainees, but the practice never measured up to his words.) This humanistic strain runs through Lieber's Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, which President Lincoln approved on April 24, 1863, as General Orders No. 100. The Lieber code, as it is now known, was the first recognized codification of the laws of war in modern times. As Lieber noted at the time, "nothing of the kind exists in any language. I had no guide, no ground-work, no text-book." Its 157 rules made a lasting place for Lieber--and the United States--in the development of the laws of war. Lieber was no softie when it came to warfare. While believing that the final aim of war was to re-establish the state of peace, he argued that the best way to achieve this was through short, decisive wars. As Article 29 of Lieber's code states, "the more vigorously wars are pursued, the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief." This thinking underlines U.S. war-fighting doctrine today. The Lieber code has been criticized for its reliance on the doctrine of "military necessity," which permits often egregious practices so long as a commander has a military justification, an all-too-handy escape clause. But Lieber's conception of military necessity actually placed limits on an army's actions where previously none existed. Thus pre-Lieber code armies could loot and destroy civilian property at will, even when there was no military need for doing so. Other Lieber code provisions considered barbaric today--such as the starvation of besieged towns--were part and parcel of 19th-century warfare and have since been prohibited. Such caveats aside, the Lieber code consolidated important humanizing elements of warfare. Of particular note are Lieber's, and ultimately Lincoln's, views on the treatment of prisoners. Article 16 of the code boldly states: "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions." All forms of cruelty against prisoners are prohibited. Even the code's broad acceptance of military necessity does not provide a justification for torture. General Orders No. 100 was distributed to the Union armies in the field, and the standards set by the code seem to have been generally observed by both sides. At the close of the war, the code's precepts figured in the debate over Sherman's destructive "March to the Sea," and in the trial and conviction of Captain Henry Wirtz, commandant of the notorious Confederate prison camp at Andersonville in Georgia. The major powers of Europe quickly recognized the value of codified laws of war, and Lieber's code became the model for Prussia and other armies on the continent. Ultimately this American vision of warfare and the treatment of prisoners became the basis for the major international treaties, namely the Hague Regulations at the turn of the 20th century and the Geneva Conventions at mid-century. Geneva's strict prohibitions on torture and other cruel treatment can be traced through Lieber's own uncompromising language. Pooh-Poohing the Geneva Conventions The Bush administration, by openly disregarding the laws of war in its treatment of detainees, has undermined an important American tradition. Even after the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos, Secretary Rumsfeld continued to pooh-pooh the Geneva Conventions. On NBC's "Today" program on May 5, 2004, he explained that the conventions "did not apply precisely" but were "basic rules" for handling prisoners. Visiting Abu Ghraib a week later, Rumsfeld remarked: "Geneva doesn't say what you do when you get up in the morning" In fact, the U.S. armed forces have devoted considerable energy over the years to making the Geneva Conventions fully operational among military personnel. Various U.S. military field manuals and operational handbooks provide the means for implementing Geneva Convention provisions, even where those provisions are unclear. While the media often still refer to the "Abu Ghraib scandal," we now know serious crimes were committed in several dozen detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guanta'namo Bay. According to the Pentagon's latest count, no fewer than 27 detainee deaths were criminal homicides. The C.I.A. has admitted to using water-boarding (near drowning), unmistakably a form of torture. And documents newly released under the Freedom of Information Act have confirmed some of the more extreme accounts of detainee abuse. In the meantime, one suspects those Abu Ghraib photos are being used by Al Qaeda and others as recruiting posters. The White House has treated these crimes in the manner of a tin-pot dictatorship. It has engaged in pseudo-hand-wringing, dog-and-pony investigations and lackluster criminal prosecutions that have concentrated on the "bad apples" at the bottom of the barrel and ignored those at the top. The connection between the official policies and the unofficial practices has yet to be fully investigated. Administration officials most responsible have gotten promotions and praise rather than the boot. One top official, now out of office, fully understood where the administration was leading us. The day after Alberto Gonzales sent his January 2002 memo to the president, Colin Powell submitted a stinging rebuke. He wrote that declaring the Geneva Conventions inapplicable to the Afghan conflict would "reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practice in supporting the Geneva Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and in general." And he warned that it would have "a high cost in terms of negative international reaction, with immediate adverse consequences for our conduct of foreign policy." Other dissenters are beginning to come out of the woodwork. Shortly after stepping down from his post as State Department legal advisor, William H. Taft IV told an audience at American University in March of this year: "It has been a continuing source of amazement and, I may add, considerable disappointment to me that...lawyers at the Department of Justice thought it was important to decide at that time that the Conventions did not apply to al Qaeda as a matter of law.... This unsought conclusion unhinged those responsible for the treatment of the detainees in Guanta'namo from the legal guidelines for interrogation of detainees reflected in the Conventions and embodied in the Army Field Manual for decades." Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to punish properly those responsible for war crimes will place captured American soldiers and civilians in future wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years have looked to the United States as a source of inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime have lost an important ally. The difficult task of promoting decent conduct in the world's myriad vicious little wars--wars that often affect U.S. interests--has now become even harder. The Bush administration, its moral claims aside, has given the protection of basic human dignity short shrift. Abraham Lincoln's legacy of a humane articulation of the laws of war has long served the interests of the United States. Americans can be genuinely proud of it. It is a legacy that with each feckless Pentagon investigation and half-hearted war crimes prosecution becomes more and more imperiled. James Ross is senior legal advisor for Human Rights Watch in New York. He attended military commission hearings at Guanta'namo Bay in November 2004. Copyright (c) 2005 by America Press, Inc. All Rights Reserved. For information about America, go to www.americamagazine.org. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/27161ebe/attachment-0001.htm From calvillo45 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 18 02:07:42 2005 From: calvillo45 at hotmail.com (Luis Carlos Calvillo Capri) Date: Thu Aug 18 02:07:56 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Prisions Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/ad262a22/attachment.htm From tmhughley at wcbcorps.com Thu Aug 18 02:19:43 2005 From: tmhughley at wcbcorps.com (Tessa M. Hughley) Date: Thu Aug 18 02:19:52 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: Hello Raymond, I am in Portland, Oregon. The weather is also generally mild, lovely in the summer and rainy and dark in the winter. I've gotten used to that part of it. St. Helena has several little micro climactic areas. It can be very hot and dry in Jamestown and along the coast and less hot with more rain in the interior of the island. The coast is very dry and nearly barren, the seaward side of the island is very lush and ancient seeming, think Jurassic Park. There are parts that remind me of the Mediterranean and parts that remind me of England. It might be very hot in Jamestown but drive fifteen minutes or so into Blue Hill and the mist might be rolling across the hills. I love Blue Hill! Happy for a little talk of weather..... Tessa -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of Raymond Dopmeyer Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:53 PM To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey St. Helena, being very close to the Equator, I imagine would have a very nice mild winter. Here in the United States of America (northern hemisphere) we are having summer. I am in Minnesota where it is not very hot at the moment. You say you are in Portland; is that in Oregon or Maine? Raymond Dopmeyer, raydop@yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/41a01dfd/attachment.htm From svest at mindspring.com Thu Aug 18 02:48:55 2005 From: svest at mindspring.com (Steven W. Vest) Date: Thu Aug 18 02:47:51 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124326135.2947.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Fascinating information about Sealand. I have never heard of it before. God Bless, Steven W. Vest -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Leslie Strom Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:20:27 -0700 Size: 3655 Url: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/774a853b/attachment.eml From glenrod6004 at xtra.co.nz Thu Aug 18 12:27:03 2005 From: glenrod6004 at xtra.co.nz (Rod & Glen Smith) Date: Thu Aug 18 12:27:19 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Born St Helena 1831 - what circumstances? Message-ID: <00be01c5a3df$6028ac80$0301010a@GLENROD04> A relation I'm researching appears to have been born on St. Helena in 1831. I'm fascinated to know in what circumstances that event would have taken place. The gentleman's name was George Vernon Gideon, probably of English stock I would have thought. He later grew up to become a captain in the English merchant navy. Was there an English garrison on St. Helena at the time? Would a ship perhaps call in there if Mrs. Gideon was close to giving birth? Suggestions welcomed. Rod Smith Wellington New Zealand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050818/0156efed/attachment.htm From csmatthews at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 18 18:06:30 2005 From: csmatthews at ntlworld.com (csmatthews@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu Aug 18 18:06:44 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Re: Portland Message-ID: <20050818160630.PPFV3432.aamta10-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Portland in Dorset England is, of course, possible. (its across the Atlantic from you, Raymond.) > > From: list-request@sthelena.se > Date: 2005/08/18 Thu AM 12:54:53 BST > To: list@sthelena.se > Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 15 > > Send List mailing list submissions to > list@sthelena.se > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > list-request@sthelena.se > > You can reach the person managing the list at > list-owner@sthelena.se > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of List digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. RE: Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey (Raymond Dopmeyer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:53:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: Raymond Dopmeyer > Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)" > > Message-ID: <20050817235300.26566.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > St. Helena, being very close to the Equator, I imagine would have a very nice mild winter. Here in the United States of America (northern hemisphere) we are having summer. I am in Minnesota where it is not very hot at the moment. You say you are in Portland; is that in Oregon or Maine? Raymond Dopmeyer, raydop@yahoo.com > > "Tessa M. Hughley" wrote: > > Thanks for the excellent article Paul! > > ........I hear St. Helena is having a very nice mild winter. How's the weather where you are?? > Here in Portland after a very hot weekend we are enjoying a cool, grey morning. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > Behalf Of P. A. Koroluk > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:46 AM > To: list@sthelena.se > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey > > > Dear List Members, > > Although I hesitate to contribute to the drift of discussion > away from St. Helena, I thought this timely article might > provide some useful background reference. > > > Your humble servant, > > Paul Koroluk writing from Tokyo > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > America (americamagazine.org) > Vol. 193 No. 4, August 15, 2005 > > Bush, Torture and Lincoln's Legacy > > By James Ross > > Being the only superpower means never having to say > you're sorry. In the year since the first photos of > humiliation and torture at Abu Ghraib prison were leaked, > there has been a flurry of Pentagon studies, > jump-started criminal investigations and disturbing new > revelations in the media. Yet public attention has not > translated into sustained public outcry. The Bush > administration has been remarkably successful thus far > in in its efforts to avoid paying a political price for > policies that are destined to endanger U.S. soldiers in > future wars and harm America's long-term foreign policy > interests. > > An important reason for this muted outrage has been the > administration's skill in disparaging the laws of armed > conflict--that hoary body of international law that does > not ban war, but seeks to minimize the suffering war > invariably produces. The administration has sought to > portray this law, particularly the Geneva Conventions of > 1949, as harmful rather than helpful for protecting > America's security. > > When the first detainees arrived at Guanta'namo Bay in > January 2002, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, > declared them all to be unlawful combatants who "do not > have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. The > United States, he said, would "for the most part, treat > them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the > Geneva Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate." > Later that month, then-White House counsel Alberto > Gonzales wrote to President Bush that the Geneva > Convention provisions on questioning enemy prisoners > were "obsolete" and argued, among other things, that > rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Convention > "[s]ubstantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal > prosecution" of U.S. officials for war crimes. > > Over the objections of then-Secretary of State Colin > Powell and military leaders, President Bush essentially > adopted this line. On Feb. 7, 2002, he announced that > the Geneva Conventions did not apply in military > operations against Al Qaeda. Rumsfeld told journalists > that day: "The reality is the set of facts that exist > today with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not > necessarily the set of facts that were considered when > the Geneva Convention was fashioned." > > The administration's rejection of the Geneva Conventions > was unlawful, unnecessary and ultimately led to the > abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq and at > Guanta'namo Bay. Under the Geneva Conventions, captured > members of armed groups such as Al Qaeda are not > entitled to prisoner-of-war status. They are nonetheless > entitled to the basic protections afforded all persons > taken into custody in a battle zone, including > protection from torture and other ill treatment, a fair > trial should they be charged with a crime and, in the > case of civilian detainees, periodic review of the > security rationale for their detention. > > The administration's policy opened the door for the > bizarre legal theories put forward in the infamous > "torture memos" drafted in 2002 and 2003. Besides nearly > defining away the concept of torture, these memos claim > that no law, international or domestic, bans the > president, as commander in chief, from ordering torture. > (By this reasoning, Saddam Hussein could lawfully order > torture too.) Although the White House frequently > repeated the mantra of "humane treatment" of detainees, > the rejection of the Geneva Conventions and the torture > memos' encouragement of unlawful practices meant that > the pragmatic and legally grounded U.S. military > regulations on interrogations could safely be ignored. > > Abraham Lincoln and General Orders 100 > > The Bush administration's attitude toward the laws of > war is a radical departure from longstanding U.S. > military practice. During the Korean War, the United > States treated enemy soldiers in accordance with the > Geneva Conventions, even though none of the protagonists > had yet to ratify the treaties. In Vietnam, captured > Viet Cong were held as prisoners of war even though the > letter of the law did not require it. This is an old and > noble tradition. David Hackett Fischer describes in his > recent book, Washington's Crossing, how Gen. George > Washington made sure that captured British and Hessian > soldiers were treated humanely, even though the British > often executed captured Continentals. Washington was not > just being generous: he understood that such treatment > would over time best serve the interests of American > soldiers. > > Surprisingly little attention has been paid to > President Bush's--and everyone else's--most admired > president, Abraham Lincoln, on the laws of war. Despite > the grave threat the Civil War posed to the nation, > Lincoln recognized the value of broadly recognized rules > of war that promote restraint and humanistic principles. > > By late 1862, the bloody day at Antietam and the > issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation had totally > changed the nature of the war. In Bruce Catton's words, > "The war now was a war to preserve the Union and to end > slavery.... It could not stop until one side or the > other was made incapable of fighting any longer; hence, > by the standards of that day, it was going to be an > all-out war--hard, ruthless, vicious.... Lincoln > recognized that such a conflict required greater > attention to war's customary rules, not less. > > First was the problem of the legal status of captured > Confederate soldiers. Lincoln did not want to recognize > the rebellion of the Southern states as legitimate, nor > was it desirable or feasible to label all Johnny Rebs as > traitors subject to execution. He needed a way to treat > captured Confederate soldiers as prisoners of war > without suggesting that the Confederate States of > America was a lawful state. > > Second, the hyper-expansion of the U.S. military from a > peacetime force of 13,000 professional soldiers to > multiple armies of several hundred thousand volunteers > and conscripts placed huge burdens on military > discipline. In northern Virginia and other areas under > federal occupation, vandalism by Union forces was > rampant. Whereas the old army could slowly familiarize > new recruits with the traditional laws of war, the Civil > War army, whose officers were often as green as its foot > soldiers, required a clearly written set of rules of > practical value. > > Lincoln turned for advice to an e'migre' legal scholar, > Francis Lieber, at Columbia College (now University) in > New York City. Born in Berlin, Lieber as a teenager > fought and was severely wounded during the Waterloo > campaign. Prussian political repression brought him to > the United States in 1827. He taught for many years in > South Carolina, keeping quiet his strong abolitionist > views until he transferred to Columbia's faculty in 1857. > > More than his European upbringing, Lieber's views on the > laws of war reflected his life in America: two of his > sons fought for the Union, one losing an arm at Fort > Donelson. His eldest son, raised in the South, joined > the Confederate ranks and was mortally wounded at the > Battle of Williamsburg in May 1862. In a letter to > Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, Lieber wrote: > "I knew war as [a] soldier, as a wounded man in the > hospital, as an observing citizen, but I had yet to > learn it in the phase of a father searching for his > wounded son, walking through the hospitals, peering in > the ambulances." > > Contrary to prevailing attitudes in the North, Lieber > urged that on humanitarian grounds Union forces grant > the privileges of belligerency to Confederate forces. > This allowed Lincoln to dodge the thorny question of > appearing to recognize the Confederacy while providing > rebel soldiers the protections then normally due > prisoners of war. (Bush appeared to be adopting this > approach when he called for the humane treatment of > Guanta'namo detainees, but the practice never measured > up to his words.) > > This humanistic strain runs through Lieber's > Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United > States in the Field, which President Lincoln approved > on April 24, 1863, as General Orders No. 100. The Lieber > code, as it is now known, was the first recognized > codification of the laws of war in modern times. As > Lieber noted at the time, "nothing of the kind exists in > any language. I had no guide, no ground-work, no > text-book." Its 157 rules made a lasting place for > Lieber--and the United States--in the development of the > laws of war. > > Lieber was no softie when it came to warfare. > While believing that the final aim of war was to > re-establish the state of peace, he argued that the best > way to achieve this was through short, decisive wars. As > Article 29 of Lieber's code states, "the more vigorously > wars are pursued, the better it is for humanity. Sharp > wars are brief." This thinking underlines U.S. > war-fighting doctrine today. > > The Lieber code has been criticized for its reliance on > the doctrine of "military necessity," which permits > often egregious practices so long as a commander has a > military justification, an all-too-handy escape clause. > But Lieber's conception of military necessity actually > placed limits on an army's actions where previously none > existed. Thus pre-Lieber code armies could loot and > destroy civilian property at will, even when there was > no military need for doing so. Other Lieber code > provisions considered barbaric today--such as the > starvation of besieged towns--were part and parcel of > 19th-century warfare and have since been prohibited. > > Such caveats aside, the Lieber code consolidated > important humanizing elements of warfare. Of particular > note are Lieber's, and ultimately Lincoln's, views on > the treatment of prisoners. Article 16 of the code > boldly states: "Military necessity does not admit of > cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the > sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or > wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort > confessions." All forms of cruelty against prisoners are > prohibited. Even the code's broad acceptance of military > necessity does not provide a justification for torture. > > General Orders No. 100 was distributed to the Union > armies in the field, and the standards set by the code > seem to have been generally observed by both sides. At > the close of the war, the code's precepts figured in the > debate over Sherman's destructive "March to the Sea," > and in the trial and conviction of Captain Henry Wirtz, > commandant of the notorious Confederate prison camp at > Andersonville in Georgia. > > The major powers of Europe quickly recognized the value > of codified laws of war, and Lieber's code became the > model for Prussia and other armies on the continent. > Ultimately this American vision of warfare and the > treatment of prisoners became the basis for the major > international treaties, namely the Hague Regulations at > the turn of the 20th century and the Geneva Conventions > at mid-century. Geneva's strict prohibitions on torture > and other cruel treatment can be traced through Lieber's > own uncompromising language. > > Pooh-Poohing the Geneva Conventions > > The Bush administration, by openly disregarding the laws > of war in its treatment of detainees, has undermined an > important American tradition. Even after the publication > of the Abu Ghraib photos, Secretary Rumsfeld continued > to pooh-pooh the Geneva Conventions. On NBC's "Today" > program on May 5, 2004, he explained that the > conventions "did not apply precisely" but were "basic > rules" for handling prisoners. Visiting Abu Ghraib a > week later, Rumsfeld remarked: "Geneva doesn't say what > you do when you get up in the morning" In fact, the U.S. > armed forces have devoted considerable energy over the > years to making the Geneva Conventions fully operational > among military personnel. Various U.S. military field > manuals and operational handbooks provide the means for > implementing Geneva Convention provisions, even where > those provisions are unclear. > > While the media often still refer to the "Abu Ghraib > scandal," we now know serious crimes were committed in > several dozen detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and > at Guanta'namo Bay. According to the Pentagon's latest > count, no fewer than 27 detainee deaths were criminal > homicides. The C.I.A. has admitted to using > water-boarding (near drowning), unmistakably a form of > torture. And documents newly released under the Freedom > of Information Act have confirmed some of the more > extreme accounts of detainee abuse. In the meantime, one > suspects those Abu Ghraib photos are being used by Al > Qaeda and others as recruiting posters. > > The White House has treated these crimes in the manner > of a tin-pot dictatorship. It has engaged in > pseudo-hand-wringing, dog-and-pony investigations and > lackluster criminal prosecutions that have concentrated > on the "bad apples" at the bottom of the barrel and > ignored those at the top. The connection between the > official policies and the unofficial practices has yet > to be fully investigated. Administration officials most > responsible have gotten promotions and praise rather > than the boot. > > One top official, now out of office, fully understood > where the administration was leading us. The day after > Alberto Gonzales sent his January 2002 memo to the > president, Colin Powell submitted a stinging rebuke. He > wrote that declaring the Geneva Conventions inapplicable > to the Afghan conflict would "reverse over a century of > U.S. policy and practice in supporting the Geneva > Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of > war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and > in general." And he warned that it would have "a high > cost in terms of negative international reaction, with > immediate adverse consequences for our conduct of > foreign policy." > > Other dissenters are beginning to come out of the > woodwork. Shortly after stepping down from his post as > State Department legal advisor, William H. Taft IV told > an audience at American University in March of this > year: "It has been a continuing source of amazement and, > I may add, considerable disappointment to me > that...lawyers at the Department of Justice thought it > was important to decide at that time that the > Conventions did not apply to al Qaeda as a matter of > law.... This unsought conclusion unhinged those > responsible for the treatment of the detainees in > Guanta'namo from the legal guidelines for interrogation > of detainees reflected in the Conventions and embodied > in the Army Field Manual for decades." > > Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to > punish properly those responsible for war crimes will > place captured American soldiers and civilians in future > wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years > have looked to the United States as a source of > inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime > have lost an important ally. The difficult task of > promoting decent conduct in the world's myriad vicious > little wars--wars that often affect U.S. interests--has > now become even harder. The Bush administration, its > moral claims aside, has given the protection of basic > human dignity short shrift. > > Abraham Lincoln's legacy of a humane articulation of the > laws of war has long served the interests of the United > States. Americans can be genuinely proud of it. It is a > legacy that with each feckless Pentagon investigation > and half-hearted war crimes prosecution becomes more and > more imperiled. > > > James Ross is senior legal advisor for Human Rights > Watch in New York. He attended military commission > hearings at Guanta'namo Bay in November 2004. > > Copyright (c) 2005 by America Press, Inc. All Rights > Reserved. For information about America, go to > www.americamagazine.org. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/27161ebe/attachment.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List mailing list > List@sthelena.se > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > > > End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 15 > ************************************ > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From CLane at hhp.ufl.edu Thu Aug 18 19:35:37 2005 From: CLane at hhp.ufl.edu (Lane, Charles) Date: Thu Aug 18 19:38:08 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninter esting speculation?) Message-ID: Looking toward the future... St. Helena will be undergoing some significant social, cultural, and business upheavals with the advent of new tourism that will inevitably follow the construction of the airport. Making these transitions smoothly, and successfully, requires significant planning and foresight. Arguably, the last thing that the island needs right now is the baggage associated with a destination image of "The New Devil's Island" - that could cost St. Helena billions. Charles Lane (lurking for 3 years; 1st post) -----Original Message----- From: SHAHUL [mailto:peershahul@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:06 PM To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting speculation?) Me too. Its a never ending debate. Lets close this chapter for ever and discuss something good for the island. Rgds Shahul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cranham" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (wasAninteresting speculation?) > Chris, > I am with you on this. > It's very boring and irrelevant. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On > Behalf Of Christopher D. Lewis > Sent: 16 August 2005 17:36 > To: thomas@flyingkettle.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the > South Atlantic(Eng) > Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Please take off-topic debate elsewhere (was > Aninteresting speculation?) > > > Dear St. Helena Subscribers, > I did not sign up sign up to this St. Helena list to be > "educated" on others' viewpoints on the merits/demerits of US policy > in Guantanamo Bay, the impact of counterterrorist operations, etc. > This discussion, which never had much grounding in the island's > current status or the local law, is pretty easily recognizable now as > a "flame war". > Everyone who has weighed in on this thread has seen the email > address of the interested parties and can contact them off-list. > Yahoo!, among others, allows people to create groups and run lists, > and you will have no trouble creating a list for debating suspected > foreign terrorist incarceration policies. > At the moment the signal to noise ratio on this formerly mostly > quiescent list is so bad there's not much point to sacrificing my > bandwidth to it. If this does not halt I for one will simply > unsubscribe. > Good luck, > Chris > > >> The S:t Helena Mailing List >> To unsubscribe please send a email to: >> list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. >> > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From olsson at helanta.sh Fri Aug 19 22:43:57 2005 From: olsson at helanta.sh (Mike) Date: Fri Aug 19 22:44:47 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1124483527_692@sthmail1> It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic discussions about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. St Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents (like Napoleon) until the late 1960s. I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and many of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly sound proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by the community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. Mike St Helena This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. From jvigor at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 23:29:03 2005 From: jvigor at earthlink.net (John and June Vigor) Date: Fri Aug 19 23:26:52 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion References: <1124483527_692@sthmail1> Message-ID: <000501c5a505$06849960$ed03f204@fmk4n> Mike, I quite agree with you. Mr. Goodey's suggestion was naughty and provocative, but it was totally relevant to this list. I have visited St. Helena in my own little sailboat, and I can tell you that its appearance from 5 or 10 miles off is absolutely forbidding. To say that its stark brown ramparts look unfriendly is to say the very least. Its reputation as a fortress prison is well earned, and it did its job very well in Napoleon's day and after. So, when you get ashore, the contrast is quite astonishing. The friendliness of the Saints is overwhelming, and the fascinating glimpse of lush greenery at the head of the valley tells you that there is more to this quiet island than the stern volcanic ramparts that surround it. Because of the political realities, I doubt that anyone's even considering using the island as a second Guantanamo, so I don't think you have to worry about that. And if contributors to this list are wary of discussing international politics, how about a question concerning internal politics--Mike, as an insider, can you tell us what happened to Stuart Moors, former editor of the St. Helena Herald? He disappeared into the blue a few weeks ago. The paper gave no warning that he was leaving and offered no explanation for his absence. One day he was there, next day he was gone. I expect everybody on the island knows what happened, but to those of us on the outside it's a complete mystery. It's highly unusual for a person in a high-profile position like that to disappear without trace, and the lack of any official explanation naturally causes one to speculate wildly. What happened? John Vigor From jerry at cccolo.com Fri Aug 19 23:53:57 2005 From: jerry at cccolo.com (jerry@cccolo.com) Date: Fri Aug 19 23:54:12 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion References: <1124483527_692@sthmail1> <000501c5a505$06849960$ed03f204@fmk4n> Message-ID: <001001c5a508$806bff90$0301a8c0@toshibauser> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John and June Vigor" To: "All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)" Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion > > Mike, I quite agree with you. Mr. Goodey's suggestion was naughty and > provocative, but it was totally relevant to this list. I have visited St. > Helena in my own little sailboat, and I can tell you that its appearance > from 5 or 10 miles off is absolutely forbidding. To say that its stark brown > ramparts look unfriendly is to say the very least. Its reputation as a > fortress prison is well earned, and it did its job very well in Napoleon's > day and after. > > So, when you get ashore, the contrast is quite astonishing. The > friendliness of the Saints is overwhelming, and the fascinating glimpse of > lush greenery at the head of the valley tells you that there is more to this > quiet island than the stern volcanic ramparts that surround it. > > Because of the political realities, I doubt that anyone's even considering > using the island as a second Guantanamo, so I don't think you have to worry > about that. > > And if contributors to this list are wary of discussing international > politics, how about a question concerning internal politics--Mike, as an > insider, can you tell us what happened to Stuart Moors, former editor of the > St. Helena Herald? He disappeared into the blue a few weeks ago. > > The paper gave no warning that he was leaving and offered no explanation for > his absence. One day he was there, next day he was gone. I expect > everybody on the island knows what happened, but to those of us on the > outside it's a complete mystery. It's highly unusual for a person in a > high-profile position like that to disappear without trace, and the lack of > any official explanation naturally causes one to speculate wildly. What > happened? > > John Vigor > > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > From Barry.Miller at suht.swest.nhs.uk Mon Aug 22 10:04:09 2005 From: Barry.Miller at suht.swest.nhs.uk (Barry Miller) Date: Mon Aug 22 10:04:49 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion Message-ID: Mike well said Barry >>> olsson@helanta.sh 08/19/05 09:43pm >>> It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic discussions about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. St Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents (like Napoleon) until the late 1960s. I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and many of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly sound proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by the community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. Mike St Helena This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. D I S C L A I M E R This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 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Please visit our website at http://www.suht.nhs.uk From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Mon Aug 22 10:58:08 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Mon Aug 22 10:58:53 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article Message-ID: <001401c5a6f7$a3449180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> My comments at the end. JT The Sunday Herald Glasgow, Scotland 21 August 2005 The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of paradise, but the future of three of the Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new lives elsewhere. The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate that their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links with New Zealand, where inhabitants are automatically granted passports and residence. Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of islanders to opt for a better life abroad. Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just 1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call the archipelago home, while 6000 of their compatriots have moved to New Zealand. In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a population expert with the secretariat. "Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's very hard to attract them back," he added. Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle Ages". "There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. "They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive." The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are only 200m wide. The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-km, are so crowded that domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly because it showed the population had dipped as low as 1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's smallest state by population. Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic homogeneity. Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish community hall, Niue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and fisheries. "Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back and just twiddle their thumbs. They want a comfortable living." Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the Bounty mutineers in the 18th century. This case, though, hardly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not always fulfil its promise. ----------------------------- In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive". John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. From C.Borrowman at gov.je Mon Aug 22 12:13:44 2005 From: C.Borrowman at gov.je (Clive Borrowman) Date: Mon Aug 22 12:23:02 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article Message-ID: After working in St. Helena I went to work in Niue. If there is one lesson to be learnt by St. Helena from Niue it is that St. Helena should not believe that having an airport will automatically bring in countless tourists. Niue has a first class airport built by New Zealand and a first class hotel paid for by New Zealand, all in an effort to encourage tourists to visit what is a South Pacific tropical island paradise, the same size as St. Helena. During one of the years I was working there New Zealand also spent $NZ800,000 on promoting the island as a tourist destination. Niue had 800 visitors in that time virtually all of whom arrived in and stayed on their own yachts. The hotel, with its two swimming pools, achieved an occupancy rate of just 4%. There are probably many other lessons St. Helena could learn from the situation Niue finds itself in. Clive Borrowman PS It also has a golf course just like that in St. Helena except that it has coconut trees instead of wind bent bushes as traps for your golf balls. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of John Turner, Bank of St. Helena Sent: 22 August 2005 09:58 To: 'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)' Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article ************************************************************************ This e-mail has been received directly from the INTERNET: you should exercise a degree of caution since there can be no guarantee that the source or content of the message is authentic. If you receive inappropriate e-mail from an external source it is your responsibility to notify Computer Services Helpdesk (telephone 738884). The full States e-mail Usage Policy can be found here: http://intranet1/aware/Internet_email_issues.htm ************************************************************************ My comments at the end. JT The Sunday Herald Glasgow, Scotland 21 August 2005 The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of paradise, but the future of three of the Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new lives elsewhere. The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate that their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links with New Zealand, where inhabitants are automatically granted passports and residence. Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of islanders to opt for a better life abroad. Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just 1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call the archipelago home, while 6000 of their compatriots have moved to New Zealand. In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a population expert with the secretariat. "Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's very hard to attract them back," he added. Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle Ages". "There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. "They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive." The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are only 200m wide. The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-km, are so crowded that domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly because it showed the population had dipped as low as 1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's smallest state by population. Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic homogeneity. Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish community hall, Niue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and fisheries. "Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back and just twiddle their thumbs. They want a comfortable living." Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the Bounty mutineers in the 18th century. This case, though, hardly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not always fulfil its promise. ----------------------------- In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive". John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. ********************************************************************** Confidentiality: The information in this e-mail and any attachments may contain proprietary information some or all of which may be legally privileged. It must not be disclosed to or used by persons other than the intended recipient. If received in error, please notify us immediately and then delete this document. Any reply to this e-mail may be read by the recipients and servants or agents of the States of Jersey. We cannot guarantee the confidentiality of any sensitive personal information you send us by e-mail. Content: Any views or opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the States of Jersey. Please note that the content of this e-mail may be intercepted, monitored or recorded for compliance purposes. Sensitive personal data should not normally be transmitted by e-mail. Copyright: Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments created by the States of Jersey belongs to the States of Jersey unless otherwise stated. Care: The States of Jersey shall not be liable to the recipient or any third party for any loss or damage howsoever arising from this e-mail and/or its content, including loss or damage caused by virus. It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that the opening or use of this message and any attachments shall not adversely affect systems or data. Contact: If you require assistance, please contact the sender of this e-mail, or the States of Jersey Central IT Helpdesk. Helpdesk telephone +44(0)1534 738884 E-mail: CSDHelpdesk@gov.je States of Jersey web site ********************************************************************** From Vince.Thompson at networkrail.co.uk Mon Aug 22 12:52:29 2005 From: Vince.Thompson at networkrail.co.uk (Thompson Vince) Date: Mon Aug 22 12:52:16 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus Message-ID: <47961DE15E7B98438975AF8451161069FE3EC5@sr1mm01.corp.UKrail.net> As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a reality some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous than before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and demographic fabric of the island. The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. Any Comment? Vince Thompson -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of list-request@sthelena.se Sent: 22 August 2005 11:00 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 Send List mailing list submissions to list@sthelena.se To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to list-request@sthelena.se You can reach the person managing the list at list-owner@sthelena.se When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion (Barry Miller) 2. FW: Article (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:04:09 +0100 From: "Barry Miller" Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mike well said Barry >>> olsson@helanta.sh 08/19/05 09:43pm >>> It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic discussions about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. St Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents (like Napoleon) until the late 1960s. I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and many of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly sound proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by the community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. Mike St Helena This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. D I S C L A I M E R This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Trust unless explicitly stated otherwise. If you have received this e-mail in error please delete the e-mail and contact the Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust Helpdesk on:- 023 80796000 The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the Information is legally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MailMarshal for the presence of computer viruses. Please visit our website at http://www.suht.nhs.uk ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:58:08 -0000 From: "John Turner, Bank of St. Helena" Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)'" Message-ID: <001401c5a6f7$a3449180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" My comments at the end. JT The Sunday Herald Glasgow, Scotland 21 August 2005 The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of paradise, but the future of three of the Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new lives elsewhere. The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate that their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links with New Zealand, where inhabitants are automatically granted passports and residence. Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of islanders to opt for a better life abroad. Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just 1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call the archipelago home, while 6000 of their compatriots have moved to New Zealand. In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a population expert with the secretariat. "Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's very hard to attract them back," he added. Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle Ages". "There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. "They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive." The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are only 200m wide. The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-km, are so crowded that domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly because it showed the population had dipped as low as 1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's smallest state by population. Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic homogeneity. Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish community hall, Niue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and fisheries. "Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back and just twiddle their thumbs. They want a comfortable living." Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the Bounty mutineers in the 18th century. This case, though, hardly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not always fulfil its promise. ----------------------------- In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive". John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List mailing list List@sthelena.se http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 ************************************ Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Mon Aug 22 16:19:56 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Mon Aug 22 16:20:43 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport In-Reply-To: <47961DE15E7B98438975AF8451161069FE3EC5@sr1mm01.corp.UKrail.net> Message-ID: <000201c5a724$98cb78e0$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Having been involved in managing change, in one form or another, for most of my career, I have seen a good many reactions to the prospect of change. The swing from initial enthusiasm through to 'second thoughts' doubt is quite normal, and usually settles down to a realistic view of the benefits and costs that the change will bring. But there is one aspect of change that is often forgotten - there is no alternative. The 'no change' option rarely exists. It does not exist for St.?Helena. If the airport project was cancelled tomorrow, St.?Helena would not stay preserved in its present state like some form of cultural specimen. St.?Helena was changing before the airport was announced, and that change was not generally to the liking of the population. Around 50% of Saints currently live and work off-island. That creates a number of problems for families, particularly where one or both parents are working abroad and the children are being raised by relatives. And it creates operational problems too, because the off-island workers tend to be the more skilled. Someone is reported to have quipped that "Anyone with any get-up-and-go has got-up-and-gone". This is not a view to which I subscribe - there are a great many talented and skilled people still here - but that will not continue if depopulation and economic decline are not reversed. Depopulation also causes undesirable business effects. The costs of the necessary infrastructure of modern life (water, electricity, telephones, roads, etc.) are shared between a decreasing number of people, so prices rise. And in many cases, businesses have folded on St.?Helena simply because there are too few customers to make them viable. Starting a new business into a declining market is a daunting prospect, and who can blame people for concluding that it just isn't worth the risk. DfID wouldn't be spending (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of St.?Helena. So, by all means, lets be worried about the possible downsides of having an airport. We must accept that some of the uniqueness of St.?Helena will be lost. But without the airport, St.?Helena is heading for a future as an abandoned rock, and I don't think anybody wants that. Regards, John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Thompson Vince Sent: 22 August 2005 10:52 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a reality some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous than before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and demographic fabric of the island. The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. Any Comment? Vince Thompson From C.Borrowman at gov.je Mon Aug 22 16:47:23 2005 From: C.Borrowman at gov.je (Clive Borrowman) Date: Mon Aug 22 16:46:45 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport Message-ID: John How I wish I could agree with you that "DfID wouldn't be spending (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of St.?Helena" but my experience in places elsewhere has convinced me that these airports do not get built solely for such reasons, although such reasons may exist, but more because the donor nation sees possible long term strategic advantages in having airports in such isolated places. Or am I just being cynical? C -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of John Turner, Bank of St. Helena Sent: 22 August 2005 15:20 To: 'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)' Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport ************************************************************************ This e-mail has been received directly from the INTERNET: you should exercise a degree of caution since there can be no guarantee that the source or content of the message is authentic. If you receive inappropriate e-mail from an external source it is your responsibility to notify Computer Services Helpdesk (telephone 738884). The full States e-mail Usage Policy can be found here: http://intranet1/aware/Internet_email_issues.htm ************************************************************************ Having been involved in managing change, in one form or another, for most of my career, I have seen a good many reactions to the prospect of change. The swing from initial enthusiasm through to 'second thoughts' doubt is quite normal, and usually settles down to a realistic view of the benefits and costs that the change will bring. But there is one aspect of change that is often forgotten - there is no alternative. The 'no change' option rarely exists. It does not exist for St.?Helena. If the airport project was cancelled tomorrow, St.?Helena would not stay preserved in its present state like some form of cultural specimen. St.?Helena was changing before the airport was announced, and that change was not generally to the liking of the population. Around 50% of Saints currently live and work off-island. That creates a number of problems for families, particularly where one or both parents are working abroad and the children are being raised by relatives. And it creates operational problems too, because the off-island workers tend to be the more skilled. Someone is reported to have quipped that "Anyone with any get-up-and-go has got-up-and-gone". This is not a view to which I subscribe - there are a great many talented and skilled people still here - but that will not continue if depopulation and economic decline are not reversed. Depopulation also causes undesirable business effects. The costs of the necessary infrastructure of modern life (water, electricity, telephones, roads, etc.) are shared between a decreasing number of people, so prices rise. And in many cases, businesses have folded on St.?Helena simply because there are too few customers to make them viable. Starting a new business into a declining market is a daunting prospect, and who can blame people for concluding that it just isn't worth the risk. DfID wouldn't be spending (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of St.?Helena. So, by all means, lets be worried about the possible downsides of having an airport. We must accept that some of the uniqueness of St.?Helena will be lost. But without the airport, St.?Helena is heading for a future as an abandoned rock, and I don't think anybody wants that. Regards, John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Thompson Vince Sent: 22 August 2005 10:52 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a reality some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous than before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and demographic fabric of the island. The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. Any Comment? Vince Thompson The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. ********************************************************************** Confidentiality: The information in this e-mail and any attachments may contain proprietary information some or all of which may be legally privileged. It must not be disclosed to or used by persons other than the intended recipient. If received in error, please notify us immediately and then delete this document. Any reply to this e-mail may be read by the recipients and servants or agents of the States of Jersey. We cannot guarantee the confidentiality of any sensitive personal information you send us by e-mail. Content: Any views or opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the States of Jersey. Please note that the content of this e-mail may be intercepted, monitored or recorded for compliance purposes. Sensitive personal data should not normally be transmitted by e-mail. Copyright: Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments created by the States of Jersey belongs to the States of Jersey unless otherwise stated. Care: The States of Jersey shall not be liable to the recipient or any third party for any loss or damage howsoever arising from this e-mail and/or its content, including loss or damage caused by virus. It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that the opening or use of this message and any attachments shall not adversely affect systems or data. Contact: If you require assistance, please contact the sender of this e-mail, or the States of Jersey Central IT Helpdesk. Helpdesk telephone +44(0)1534 738884 E-mail: CSDHelpdesk@gov.je States of Jersey web site ********************************************************************** From hokke27 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 22 23:40:06 2005 From: hokke27 at hotmail.com (Hokke Larsen) Date: Mon Aug 22 23:40:56 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] RE: RE: Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion In-Reply-To: <200508221000.j7MA064H010619@rex.kulturservern.se> Message-ID: Mike, I agree with you that it most entertaining to read these suggestions, and I'm sure you can 'take it', but I really can't see any reason why you should! St. Helena today is such a beautiful place, don't let it turn into a prison (again) or a waste disposal. Hokke Sweden > >>> olsson@helanta.sh 08/19/05 09:43pm >>> > > >It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic >discussions >about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. >St >Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents >(like >Napoleon) until the late 1960s. > >I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and >many >of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly >sound >proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by >the >community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before >together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. > >Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. > >Mike >St Helena > > > > > > > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St >Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. > > > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. >Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. > >The S:t Helena Mailing List >To unsubscribe please send a email to: >list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > >D I S C L A I M E R >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they >are addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of >the author and do not necessarily represent those of the >Trust unless explicitly stated otherwise. If you have received this >e-mail in error please delete the e-mail and contact the >Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust Helpdesk on:- >023 80796000 > >The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public >disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the >Information is legally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality >of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. > >This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept >by MailMarshal for the presence of computer viruses. > >Please visit our website at http://www.suht.nhs.uk > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:58:08 -0000 >From: "John Turner, Bank of St. Helena" > >Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article >To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)'" > >Message-ID: <001401c5a6f7$a3449180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >My comments at the end. >JT > > >The Sunday Herald >Glasgow, Scotland >21 August 2005 > > >The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert > > >THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of >paradise, but the future of three of the >Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new >lives elsewhere. > >The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate >that >their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, >neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. > >All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links >with New Zealand, where inhabitants are >automatically granted passports and residence. > >Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable >tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of >islanders to opt for a better life abroad. > >Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just >1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In >contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. > >Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call >the archipelago home, while 6000 of their >compatriots have moved to New Zealand. > >In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James >Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that >many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. > >A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a >regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks >is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. > >Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are >suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the >group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only >are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the >next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a population expert with the >secretariat. > >"Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's >very hard to attract them back," he added. > >Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The >Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast >give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle >Ages". > >"There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said >Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. > >"They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their >economies if they are to survive." > >The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent >territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a >vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are >only 200m wide. > >The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-km, are so crowded >that >domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, >foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's >only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly >boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. > >Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The >first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island >after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. > >An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly >because it showed the population had dipped as low as >1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's >smallest state by population. > >Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian >immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic >homogeneity. > >Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish >community hall, Niue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The >country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort >to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and >fisheries. > >"Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back >and >just twiddle their thumbs. They want a >comfortable living." > >Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is >surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful >coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic >little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." > >Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach >critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less >people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the >Bounty >mutineers in the 18th century. > >This case, though, hardly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last >year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not >always fulfil its promise. > >----------------------------- > >In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to >start developing their economies if they are to survive". >John Turner >Manager >Bank of St. Helena >www.SaintHelenaBank.com >Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. >Tel: +290 2044 >Fax: +290 2196 >NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are >those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. >This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for >the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication >privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you >received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any >review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or >any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly >prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in >error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the >communication. Thank you. > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >List mailing list >List@sthelena.se >http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > > >End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 >************************************ From thomas at flyingkettle.com Tue Aug 23 00:26:44 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Tue Aug 23 00:27:02 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Why build an airport? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <430ACFB4.20072.6EED15@localhost> On 22 Aug 2005 at 15:47, Clive Borrowman wrote: > How I wish I could agree with you that "DfID wouldn't be spending > (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on an > Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of > St.?Helena" but my experience in places elsewhere has convinced me that > these airports do not get built solely for such reasons, although such > reasons may exist, but more because the donor nation sees possible long > term strategic advantages in having airports in such isolated places. The quoted airport cost seems to be about ?40,000 per inhabitant. The UK government of course wishes to aid the local population with the judicious use of tax money, but inevitably there is a limit upon purely philanthropic expenditures. The purpose is quite otherwise: Obviously it is in the strategic interest of the UK to maintain St. Helena as a mid-South-Atlantic outpost and obviously such an outpost is much more useful and also more convincing with an airport, and obviously a thriving local population and economy will greatly strengthen the long-term claim that the island is a British possession. If the last inhabitants were to give up with St. Helena (perceiving it as an unbearable place to live) and abandoned it as an empty rock, no doubt after some decent interval the UN General Assembly would vote for it to be given "back" to South Africa, or Argentina, or Portugal, or whatever. This would not be in British interests. Think Falklands. Think Antarctica. This is why the British authorities wish to keep St. Helena operating as a going concern. It's a win-win situation for Government and the islanders, with the general UK taxpaying public bearing the cost. Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Tue Aug 23 11:23:17 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Tue Aug 23 11:23:52 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Why build an airport? In-Reply-To: <430ACFB4.20072.6EED15@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c5a7c4$501e5180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Conspiracy theories are such fun, aren't they? And if anyone provides evidence that doesn't suit the theory you just claim that it, or the witness, has been 'got at' by shady powers and undercover agents. I have two principles which I apply to all government actions: 1. 'Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence' (this actually applies to every area human activity, but is particularly useful when considering government actions as it allows a lot to be explained without assuming malice); and 2. 'If all else fails, take it at face value'. I actually believe that, with the investment in the airport and some other 'pump priming' activities, St.?Helena can move out of dependency and become a self-sufficient territory, and that it can do so without sacrificing all of its environment. If I didn't I would never have come here. Until I leave, you can assume I have not changed my mind. Regards, John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Thomas Goodey Sent: 22 August 2005 22:27 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] Why build an airport? On 22 Aug 2005 at 15:47, Clive Borrowman wrote: > How I wish I could agree with you that "DfID wouldn't be spending > (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on > an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of > St.?Helena" but my experience in places elsewhere has convinced me > that these airports do not get built solely for such reasons, although > such reasons may exist, but more because the donor nation sees > possible long term strategic advantages in having airports in such > isolated places. The quoted airport cost seems to be about ?40,000 per inhabitant. The UK government of course wishes to aid the local population with the judicious use of tax money, but inevitably there is a limit upon purely philanthropic expenditures. The purpose is quite otherwise: Obviously it is in the strategic interest of the UK to maintain St. Helena as a mid-South-Atlantic outpost and obviously such an outpost is much more useful and also more convincing with an airport, and obviously a thriving local population and economy will greatly strengthen the long-term claim that the island is a British possession. If the last inhabitants were to give up with St. Helena (perceiving it as an unbearable place to live) and abandoned it as an empty rock, no doubt after some decent interval the UN General Assembly would vote for it to be given "back" to South Africa, or Argentina, or Portugal, or whatever. This would not be in British interests. Think Falklands. Think Antarctica. This is why the British authorities wish to keep St. Helena operating as a going concern. It's a win-win situation for Government and the islanders, with the general UK taxpaying public bearing the cost. Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. __________ NOD32 1.1199 (20050822) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From thomas at flyingkettle.com Tue Aug 23 12:49:13 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Tue Aug 23 12:49:24 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Why build an airport? In-Reply-To: <000901c5a7c4$501e5180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> References: <430ACFB4.20072.6EED15@localhost> Message-ID: <430B7DB9.30613.316B38A@localhost> On 23 Aug 2005 at 9:23, John Turner, Bank of St. Helena wrote: > Conspiracy theories are such fun, aren't they? I didn't think of my remarks as advocacy of any conspiracy theory. It seems plain common sense to me. Antarctica is a large and unexploited continent which is very difficult to exploit, but that will probably change in the medium-term future. Chile, Argentina, and Britain have large and overlapping claims (none of which are recognized by the US or the UN). It would seem to be the duty of any British government to spend quite a lot of trouble and money to maintain our claim, so that (hopefully) our descendants can profit from it. Such claims are based upon two foundations: history of exploration (Britain is strong in this suit), and possession of territories near Antarctica which subtend solid angle at the South Pole, either individually or collectively. To maintain our Antarctic claims based upon this second foundation, therefore, the continued possession of Ascension, St. Helena, Tristan, the Falklands, and South Georgia is of great long term geopolitical importance for the UK. And, in this context, a thriving local colonial economy is much more convincing than a mere abandoned rock. > I have two principles which I apply to all government actions: > > 1. 'Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by > incompetence' ; and 'If all else fails, take it at face value'. These are fair, but I think my reasoning above is sound, and I am sure it is paralleled in the Foreign Office. I certainly hope so. > I actually believe that, with the investment in the airport and some other > 'pump priming' activities, St.?Helena can move out of dependency and become > a self-sufficient territory. Yes, but the question is, how much pump-priming is required? Forty grand per head for an airport is a bit more than mere pump-priming! and that doesn't cover the construction of any hotels or the required support facilities... Personally, if I lived on the island, I'd be solidly in favor of development, because in a 21st century environment any human institution must develop or die. But I wouldn't be able to make myself believe that hundreds of millions of pounds of UK taxpayers' money would be spent on a dependency of 2,500 population unless there was a very good long-term reason to do so. Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII From imann at rocketmail.com Tue Aug 23 13:13:54 2005 From: imann at rocketmail.com (Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1) Date: Tue Aug 23 13:14:11 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus In-Reply-To: <47961DE15E7B98438975AF8451161069FE3EC5@sr1mm01.corp.UKrail.net> Message-ID: <20050823111354.78493.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com> Yes it is a thought provoking piece that article especially what was left out. About two-thirds of the colony's budget is provided by the United Kingdom in the form of a subsidy. Now there going to foot the bill for an airport? Thompson Vince wrote: As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a reality some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous than before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and demographic fabric of the island. The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. Any Comment? Vince Thompson -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of list-request@sthelena.se Sent: 22 August 2005 11:00 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 Send List mailing list submissions to list@sthelena.se To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to list-request@sthelena.se You can reach the person managing the list at list-owner@sthelena.se When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion (Barry Miller) 2. FW: Article (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:04:09 +0100 From: "Barry Miller" Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mike well said Barry >>> olsson@helanta.sh 08/19/05 09:43pm >>> It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic discussions about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. St Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents (like Napoleon) until the late 1960s. I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and many of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly sound proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by the community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. Mike St Helena This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. D I S C L A I M E R This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Trust unless explicitly stated otherwise. If you have received this e-mail in error please delete the e-mail and contact the Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust Helpdesk on:- 023 80796000 The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the Information is legally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MailMarshal for the presence of computer viruses. Please visit our website at http://www.suht.nhs.uk ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:58:08 -0000 From: "John Turner, Bank of St. Helena" Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)'" Message-ID: <001401c5a6f7$a3449180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" My comments at the end. JT The Sunday Herald Glasgow, Scotland 21 August 2005 The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of paradise, but the future of three of the Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new lives elsewhere. The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate that their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links with New Zealand, where inhabitants are automatically granted passports and residence. Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of islanders to opt for a better life abroad. Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just 1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call the archipelago home, while 6000 of their compatriots have moved to New Zealand. In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a population expert with the secretariat. "Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's very hard to attract them back," he added. Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle Ages". "There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. "They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive." The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are only 200m wide. The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-km, are so crowded that domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly because it showed the population had dipped as low as 1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's smallest state by population. Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic homogeneity. Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish community hall, Niue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and fisheries. "Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back and just twiddle their thumbs. They want a comfortable living." Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the Bounty mutineers in the 18th century. This case, though, hardly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not always fulfil its promise. ----------------------------- In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive". John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List mailing list List@sthelena.se http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 ************************************ Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a source external to Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. This email should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any copies from your system. Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. ************************************************************************************************ The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. SEMPER FI Co. L 3rd Balattalion, 1st Marines, 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade Sgt Ivan Mann USMC Retired http://ca.geocities.com/imann.rm/index.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050823/7ab36b76/attachment-0001.htm From PLaudano at Fondelec.com Tue Aug 23 18:14:26 2005 From: PLaudano at Fondelec.com (Peter Laudano) Date: Tue Aug 23 18:14:46 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] RMS Schedule & Airport In-Reply-To: <200508231114.j7NBEb4H010071@rex.kulturservern.se> Message-ID: <000a01c5a7fd$beda9e10$5b01f80a@IBM7F6A26D871B> As someone who hopes to visit St. Helena someday (when my vacation schedule aligns itself with the RMS schedule), I have been following events on the Island for some time. I have questions about both the RMS schedule and the proposed airport, and was wondering whether any members of the list might be able to enlighten me. Given the current RMS schedule, it's impossible for anyone to visit St. Helena unless he/she has a month or more to spare. This rules out tourism from people whose jobs don't allow for extended leaves. It seems to me, if the RMS occasionally made an extra round of trips between St. Helena and Ascension, then it would be possible to visit St. Helena and return to the UK in less than 2 weeks. I believe the RMS schedule actually did create this type of opportunity in December of 2004, but it is not repeated in 2005. Does anyone know why this hasn't been considered? Was there insufficient tourist traffic last December to justify the additional trips between St. Helena & Ascension? I have asked AWS about this, but never received a reply. With regard to the airport, I believe the principal controversy surrounds the cost and complexity of building a runway long enough to accommodate long-range jets. During the airport discussions, did anyone consider building a shorter runway that would be able to accommodate planes flying between Ascension and St. Helena? If approval could be obtained to allow commercial flight to Ascension, then perhaps a shuttle service could be inaugurated between St. Helena and Ascension. This would allow air access to St. Helena at a greatly reduced cost and in a shorter timeframe. I'm sure there are many points I haven't considered, and I would appreciate hearing other views on these topics. Best Regards, Peter Laudano From tomickflah at yahoo.com Tue Aug 23 22:14:24 2005 From: tomickflah at yahoo.com (Michael O'Flaherty) Date: Tue Aug 23 22:14:38 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] right of residence? Message-ID: <20050823201424.45189.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> I am an Irish citizen and hope to retire within the next 5/6 years - I will then be 55 years of age. I find the Irish winters drab, dark & depressing and hope to avoid them by living for the October to April period each year in the southern hemisphere. I have no interest in following the current trend of purchasing properties in South Africa, New Zealand etc. St Helena appeals to me because of it's English values and background, it's remoteness and as an avid reader of the Herald online - it's great community spirit. I would welcome the members comments/advise with regards to the following: 1. Can an Irish/EU citizen purchase a property in St. Helena? 2. Given that I am looking at a long term plan - would it be better to look towards buying a site now (must have sea views), with a view to building my home at a later date. 3. What infrastructure exists on the Island - Auctioneers/Estate Agents, Solicitors etc. to assist me (and protect my interests) if I decide to persue this dream. Mick O'Flaherty ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From olsson at helanta.sh Tue Aug 23 23:08:44 2005 From: olsson at helanta.sh (Mike) Date: Tue Aug 23 23:09:22 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus In-Reply-To: <20050823111354.78493.qmail@web50309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124830611_1132@sthmail1> Sgt Mann, I think that an, even elementary, history lesson would do you good. Mike St Helena _____ From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1 Sent: 23 August 2005 11:14 To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus Yes it is a thought provoking piece that article especially what was left out. About two-thirds of the colony's budget is provided by the United Kingdom in the form of a subsidy. Now there going to foot the bill for an airport? Thompson Vince wrote: As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a reality some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous than before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and demographic fabric of the island. The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. Any Comment? Vince Thompson -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of list-request@sthelena.se Sent: 22 August 2005 11:00 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 Send List mailing list submissions to list@sthelena.se To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to list-request@sthelena.se You can reach the person managing the list at list-owner@sthelena.se When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of List digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion (Barry Miller) 2. FW: Article (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:04:09 +0100 From: "Barry Miller" Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mike well said Barry >>> olsson@helanta.sh 08/19/05 09:43pm >>> It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic discussions about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. St Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents (like Napoleon) until the late 1960s. I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and many of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly sound proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by the community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. Mike St Helena This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helen! a e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. D I S C L A I M E R This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Trust unless explicitly stated otherwise. If you have received this e-mail in error please delete the e-mail and contact the Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust Helpdesk on:- 023 80796000 The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the Information is le! gally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MailMarshal for the presence of computer viruses. Please visit our website at http://www.suht.nhs.uk ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:58:08 -0000 From: "John Turner, Bank of St. Helena" Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)'" Message-ID: <001401c5a6f7$a3449180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" My comments at the end. JT The Sunday Herald Glasgow, Scotland 21 August 2005 The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of parad! ise, but the future of three of the Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new lives elsewhere. The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate that their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links with New Zealand, where inhabitants are automatically granted passports and residence. Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of islanders to opt for a better life abroad. Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just 1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call the archipelago home, while 6000 of their compatriots have moved to New Zealand. In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a populati! on expert with the secretariat. "Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's very hard to attract them back," he added. Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle Ages". "There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. "They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive." The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are only 200m wide. The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-k! m, are so crowded that domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly because it showed the population had dipped as low as 1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's smallest state by population. Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic homogeneity. Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish community hall, Ni! ue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and fisheries. "Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back and just twiddle their thumbs. They want a comfortable living." Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the Bounty mutineers in the 18th century. This case, though, ha! rdly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not always fulfil its promise. ----------------------------- In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive". John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. 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Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _____ This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050823/9e46b080/attachment-0001.htm From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Wed Aug 24 10:43:38 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Wed Aug 24 10:44:10 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] RMS Schedule & Airport In-Reply-To: <000a01c5a7fd$beda9e10$5b01f80a@IBM7F6A26D871B> Message-ID: <000601c5a887$f06a8050$0a0b000a@shgbank10> I have forwarded your observations about the RMS schedule to the access office, as the schedule for 2006 onwards is currently under review. Interestingly, your point about holiday opportunities for working people is one which I also made at a meeting on Monday night, and it is useful to have my input independently collaborated. Anyone else who has comments about the RMS schedule is welcome to send them and I will forward them. Please either put them on this list or send them direct to me at the bank. Thanks JT -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Peter Laudano Sent: 23 August 2005 16:14 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] RMS Schedule & Airport As someone who hopes to visit St. Helena someday (when my vacation schedule aligns itself with the RMS schedule), I have been following events on the Island for some time. I have questions about both the RMS schedule and the proposed airport, and was wondering whether any members of the list might be able to enlighten me. Given the current RMS schedule, it's impossible for anyone to visit St. Helena unless he/she has a month or more to spare. This rules out tourism from people whose jobs don't allow for extended leaves. It seems to me, if the RMS occasionally made an extra round of trips between St. Helena and Ascension, then it would be possible to visit St. Helena and return to the UK in less than 2 weeks. I believe the RMS schedule actually did create this type of opportunity in December of 2004, but it is not repeated in 2005. Does anyone know why this hasn't been considered? Was there insufficient tourist traffic last December to justify the additional trips between St. Helena & Ascension? I have asked AWS about this, but never received a reply. With regard to the airport, I believe the principal controversy surrounds the cost and complexity of building a runway long enough to accommodate long-range jets. During the airport discussions, did anyone consider building a shorter runway that would be able to accommodate planes flying between Ascension and St. Helena? If approval could be obtained to allow commercial flight to Ascension, then perhaps a shuttle service could be inaugurated between St. Helena and Ascension. This would allow air access to St. Helena at a greatly reduced cost and in a shorter timeframe. I'm sure there are many points I haven't considered, and I would appreciate hearing other views on these topics. Best Regards, Peter Laudano The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. __________ NOD32 1.1199 (20050822) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Wed Aug 24 10:57:51 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Wed Aug 24 10:58:13 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] right of residence? In-Reply-To: <20050823201424.45189.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c5a889$ebe73030$0a0b000a@shgbank10> I can answer all three questions: 1. Anyone can purchase property here if they can obtain an "immigrant landholding permit". To apply for one of these you need to have a specific property in mind, and the process is broadly that you submit information about your financial standing, health and god character; you wait a month while it is advertised to see if any Saint has a prior claim in purchasing the property; and then you wait for the next ExCo meeting to decide if you can have the licence. You therefore need a patient vendor who has failed to sell his/her property to any local people. HOWEVER you need to know that possession of property here does not give you automatic right to enter, work or reside on St.?Helena. 2. My guess is that property prices will rise in the run-up to the opening of the airport. 3. Houses are bought and sold by word-of-mouth. Occasionally they are advertised in the paper, but this usually indicates that there have been no takers (at the desired price) from the informal market. Legal sales (e.g. for intestate deceased) would be made by auction / tender. If the bank ever repossesses a house we would also sell it by auction / tender, but there is nobody even close to having that happen - yet. The Public Solicitor would be able to help with legal work, but the formalities here are far less complex than in Europe. Most houses are bought without a formal survey as there are no surveyor businesses on the island. A good builder will check out a property for you - you can find one by asking around. It can be done. I have just done it. It helps to be here. If you are serious you will need to set aside time for at least a month on St.?Helena to look around and decide where you would like to buy/build, and then start the process. JT -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Michael O'Flaherty Sent: 23 August 2005 20:14 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] right of residence? I am an Irish citizen and hope to retire within the next 5/6 years - I will then be 55 years of age. I find the Irish winters drab, dark & depressing and hope to avoid them by living for the October to April period each year in the southern hemisphere. I have no interest in following the current trend of purchasing properties in South Africa, New Zealand etc. St Helena appeals to me because of it's English values and background, it's remoteness and as an avid reader of the Herald online - it's great community spirit. I would welcome the members comments/advise with regards to the following: 1. Can an Irish/EU citizen purchase a property in St. Helena? 2. Given that I am looking at a long term plan - would it be better to look towards buying a site now (must have sea views), with a view to building my home at a later date. 3. What infrastructure exists on the Island - Auctioneers/Estate Agents, Solicitors etc. to assist me (and protect my interests) if I decide to persue this dream. Mick O'Flaherty ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From vmawson at iprimus.com.au Wed Aug 24 11:13:09 2005 From: vmawson at iprimus.com.au (Vivienne Mawson) Date: Wed Aug 24 12:31:52 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A177700-147F-11DA-A984-000A95CF459A@iprimus.com.au> I don't think you are being cynical, Clive. St Helena will not become a tourist destination when an airport is built (why would anyone go there when a large chunk of the island becomes an airport?). I have followed the debate closely, and noticed that the far cheaper alternative of a ship connecting St Helena and Ascension was dismissed out of hand. Cruises are currently enormously popular, and likely to remain so. A flight to Ascension and a a few days spent on that extraordinary island, then a couple of days on a ship to St Helena--the combination would have considerable appeal. Although St Helena (and Ascension) still do not have docks for shipping, floating docks are scarcely new and not as absurdly expensive as an airport. The UK government would not be doling out 100m pounds if it merely wished to give St Helena an airport for tourists and returning Saints. Vince--May I suggest it is not xenophobia but experience of the UK government that makes Saints wary? Vivienne Mawson (Dr) On 23/08/2005, at 12:47 AM, Clive Borrowman wrote: > John > How I wish I could agree with you that "DfID wouldn't be spending > (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on > an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of > St.?Helena" but my experience in places elsewhere has convinced me > that these airports do not get built solely for such reasons, although > such reasons may exist, but more because the donor nation sees > possible long term strategic advantages in having airports in such > isolated places. Or am I just being cynical? > > C > From thomas at flyingkettle.com Wed Aug 24 13:02:35 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Wed Aug 24 13:02:48 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport In-Reply-To: <4A177700-147F-11DA-A984-000A95CF459A@iprimus.com.au> References: Message-ID: <430CD25B.13132.25C40A4@localhost> On 24 Aug 2005 at 19:13, Vivienne Mawson wrote: > St Helena will not become a tourist destination when an airport is built > (why would anyone go there when a large chunk of the island becomes an > airport?). Well, this is a pretty despairing attitude, because it is not likely that St. Helena will become a significant tourist destination if no airport is built! > the far cheaper alternative of a ship connecting St Helena and Ascension > was dismissed out of hand. Cruises are currently enormously popular, and > likely to remain so. A flight to Ascension and a few days spent on > that extraordinary island, then a couple of days on a ship to St > Helena--the combination would have considerable appeal. But not as much appeal for nearly as many people as "pay 1200 pounds for a week on St. Helena in a first-class hotel, visit the 'Napoleon Experience', enjoy the laid-back ambiance, etc. etc....." Moreover I am not so sure that a ship would be far cheaper option. Cruise ships cost a great deal to run, and a ship on a route has very inflexible capacity. The airport is basically a one-off capital cost, and promises to be immensely more flexible. If the demand were to be really strong, a lot of planes could be flown in and out every day. If the demand is weak, the ongoing costs can be very low. > The UK government would not be doling out 100m pounds if it merely > wished to give St Helena an airport for tourists and returning > Saints... Of course there are geopolitical implications, as I have pointed out, but they are not necessarily inimical to the interests of the inhabitants of St. Helena. There can be a synergy. Anyway, infrastructure is good. > May I suggest it is not xenophobia but experience of the UK > government that makes Saints wary? Like it or not, it's their government; there is no realistic alternative. Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII From C.Borrowman at gov.je Wed Aug 24 13:20:25 2005 From: C.Borrowman at gov.je (Clive Borrowman) Date: Wed Aug 24 13:29:41 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport Message-ID: Vivienne I agree with your comments. I should add that most of the countries I have lived and worked in have been small island jurisdictions (Jersey, where I now live, included) where tourism has been desperately sought but has rarely eventuated in the manner envisaged. True, St. Helena has attractions for certain types of people but for many of these people it is its remoteness that is its main and real attraction. Clive Borrowman -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Vivienne Mawson Sent: 24 August 2005 10:13 To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport ************************************************************************ This e-mail has been received directly from the INTERNET: you should exercise a degree of caution since there can be no guarantee that the source or content of the message is authentic. If you receive inappropriate e-mail from an external source it is your responsibility to notify Computer Services Helpdesk (telephone 738884). The full States e-mail Usage Policy can be found here: http://intranet1/aware/Internet_email_issues.htm ************************************************************************ I don't think you are being cynical, Clive. St Helena will not become a tourist destination when an airport is built (why would anyone go there when a large chunk of the island becomes an airport?). I have followed the debate closely, and noticed that the far cheaper alternative of a ship connecting St Helena and Ascension was dismissed out of hand. Cruises are currently enormously popular, and likely to remain so. A flight to Ascension and a a few days spent on that extraordinary island, then a couple of days on a ship to St Helena--the combination would have considerable appeal. Although St Helena (and Ascension) still do not have docks for shipping, floating docks are scarcely new and not as absurdly expensive as an airport. The UK government would not be doling out 100m pounds if it merely wished to give St Helena an airport for tourists and returning Saints. Vince--May I suggest it is not xenophobia but experience of the UK government that makes Saints wary? Vivienne Mawson (Dr) On 23/08/2005, at 12:47 AM, Clive Borrowman wrote: > John > How I wish I could agree with you that "DfID wouldn't be spending > (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on > an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of > St.?Helena" but my experience in places elsewhere has convinced me > that these airports do not get built solely for such reasons, although > such reasons may exist, but more because the donor nation sees > possible long term strategic advantages in having airports in such > isolated places. Or am I just being cynical? > > C > The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. ********************************************************************** Confidentiality: The information in this e-mail and any attachments may contain proprietary information some or all of which may be legally privileged. It must not be disclosed to or used by persons other than the intended recipient. If received in error, please notify us immediately and then delete this document. Any reply to this e-mail may be read by the recipients and servants or agents of the States of Jersey. We cannot guarantee the confidentiality of any sensitive personal information you send us by e-mail. Content: Any views or opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the States of Jersey. Please note that the content of this e-mail may be intercepted, monitored or recorded for compliance purposes. 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Helpdesk telephone +44(0)1534 738884 E-mail: CSDHelpdesk@gov.je States of Jersey web site ********************************************************************** From thomas at flyingkettle.com Wed Aug 24 13:36:42 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Wed Aug 24 13:36:54 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <430CDA5A.3698.27B7B6B@localhost> On 24 Aug 2005 at 12:20, Clive Borrowman wrote: > small island jurisdictions (Jersey, where I now live, included) where > tourism has been desperately sought Well, you certainly can't get much tourism without air transport facilities. That's a fact of modern life. > but has rarely eventuated in the manner envisaged. Nothing ever does. > True, St. Helena has attractions for certain types of people but for > many of these people it is its remoteness that is its main and real > attraction. Indeed, but they do want to get to that remoteness easily, cheaply, quickly, and conveniently by air! Thomas Goodey From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Wed Aug 24 14:21:55 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Wed Aug 24 14:22:34 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport In-Reply-To: <430CDA5A.3698.27B7B6B@localhost> Message-ID: <002001c5a8a6$6e38c960$0a0b000a@shgbank10> St.?Helena has far more to its credit than its remoteness. That may be a matter of minor curiosity, but I can't imagine anyone would come here simply because there is no airport. Otherwise, Tristan Da Cunah would be overrun with tourists (it doesn't even have a regular ship service), as would Gough Island, which has nothing except a weather station (the Royal Navy may be able to help). People come here because the people are delightful, its warm in winter and not too hot in the summer, the scenery is spectacular, the diving is (so I'm told) remarkable, its safe to walk the streets at night, there is some fascinating history to explore, you can see antique Ford cars in their natural environment (when did you last have a taxi ride in a Ford Sierra?), and, I'm sure, for countless other reasons. The airport will not make much difference to any of that. Regards, John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Thomas Goodey Sent: 24 August 2005 11:37 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport On 24 Aug 2005 at 12:20, Clive Borrowman wrote: > small island jurisdictions (Jersey, where I now live, included) where > tourism has been desperately sought Well, you certainly can't get much tourism without air transport facilities. That's a fact of modern life. > but has rarely eventuated in the manner envisaged. Nothing ever does. > True, St. Helena has attractions for certain types of people but for > many of these people it is its remoteness that is its main and real > attraction. Indeed, but they do want to get to that remoteness easily, cheaply, quickly, and conveniently by air! Thomas Goodey The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. __________ NOD32 1.1200 (20050823) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From iambiker at nildram.co.uk Wed Aug 24 18:55:08 2005 From: iambiker at nildram.co.uk (Jon (who else?)) Date: Wed Aug 24 18:55:36 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport References: <002001c5a8a6$6e38c960$0a0b000a@shgbank10> Message-ID: <015101c5a8cc$99da9140$1b6dd0d5@meg> I cannot see an airport being the ruin of of the island, I would like to think that that it would help the island to prosper and be financially solvent in its own right. There will undoubtedly be advantages for having an airport as well as disadvantages. Personally I am saving every penny I can in order to be able to visit the island and I would prefer to do it via the RMS (if only for the romance of the idea) rather than by an aircraft. But lets face facts here. Flying to the island will dramitically cut travel time to St Helena. This could be beneficial in, say, a medical emergency, but could have drawbacks as yet unseen. Personally I hope the Airport is a benefit to the island Jon (Dingey East London Correspondant) From hokke27 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 00:13:19 2005 From: hokke27 at hotmail.com (Hokke Larsen) Date: Thu Aug 25 00:13:49 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] RE:A reply to Peter Laudano and Mick O'Flaherty In-Reply-To: <200508232109.j7NL9e4H018852@rex.kulturservern.se> Message-ID: A short reply to Peter Laudano: After my own visit to St. Helena I can only say that to plan for only a fortnight visit is just to short for that beautiful Island. As it is now, with no airport, she is worth the long journey and the long vacation needed. My visit for 2 months (travelling with RMS from England included) did cost me my job, but it was worth it. Mick O'Flaherty: Of course I'm not an expert on St. Helenian law, but on my stay I learned the following as per your questions; 1) Yes, any (EU) citizen may buy a property on St. Helena. 2) You must at least start building on that property within a year. Failing to do that the property can (and probably will) be expropriated back to SHG. As I understand it with no refund. You should of course check this with authoroties better informed than I am, but I hope I have given you som level of information. Hokke Larsen Sweden >From: list-request@sthelena.se >Reply-To: list@sthelena.se >To: list@sthelena.se >Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 23 >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:09:43 +0200 > >Send List mailing list submissions to > list@sthelena.se > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > list-request@sthelena.se > >You can reach the person managing the list at > list-owner@sthelena.se > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of List digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. RMS Schedule & Airport (Peter Laudano) > 2. right of residence? (Michael O'Flaherty) > 3. RE: Pacific Island Exodus (Mike) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:14:26 -0400 >From: Peter Laudano >Subject: [STHELENA] RMS Schedule & Airport >To: list@sthelena.se >Message-ID: <000a01c5a7fd$beda9e10$5b01f80a@IBM7F6A26D871B> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >As someone who hopes to visit St. Helena someday (when my vacation schedule >aligns itself with the RMS schedule), I have been following events on the >Island for some time. I have questions about both the RMS schedule and the >proposed airport, and was wondering whether any members of the list might >be >able to enlighten me. > >Given the current RMS schedule, it's impossible for anyone to visit St. >Helena unless he/she has a month or more to spare. This rules out tourism >from people whose jobs don't allow for extended leaves. It seems to me, if >the RMS occasionally made an extra round of trips between St. Helena and >Ascension, then it would be possible to visit St. Helena and return to the >UK in less than 2 weeks. I believe the RMS schedule actually did create >this type of opportunity in December of 2004, but it is not repeated in >2005. Does anyone know why this hasn't been considered? Was there >insufficient tourist traffic last December to justify the additional trips >between St. Helena & Ascension? I have asked AWS about this, but never >received a reply. > >With regard to the airport, I believe the principal controversy surrounds >the cost and complexity of building a runway long enough to accommodate >long-range jets. During the airport discussions, did anyone consider >building a shorter runway that would be able to accommodate planes flying >between Ascension and St. Helena? If approval could be obtained to allow >commercial flight to Ascension, then perhaps a shuttle service could be >inaugurated between St. Helena and Ascension. This would allow air access >to St. Helena at a greatly reduced cost and in a shorter timeframe. > >I'm sure there are many points I haven't considered, and I would appreciate >hearing other views on these topics. > > > >Best Regards, > >Peter Laudano > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:14:24 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Michael O'Flaherty" >Subject: [STHELENA] right of residence? >To: list@sthelena.se >Message-ID: <20050823201424.45189.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >I am an Irish citizen and hope to retire within the >next 5/6 years - I will then be 55 years of age. I >find the Irish winters drab, dark & depressing and >hope to avoid them by living for the October to April >period each year in the southern hemisphere. I have no >interest in following the current trend of purchasing >properties in South Africa, New Zealand etc. St Helena >appeals to me because of it's English values and >background, it's remoteness and as an avid reader of >the Herald online - it's great community spirit. > >I would welcome the members comments/advise with >regards to the following: >1. Can an Irish/EU citizen purchase a property in St. >Helena? >2. Given that I am looking at a long term plan - would >it be better to look towards buying a site now (must >have sea views), with a view to building my home at a >later date. >3. What infrastructure exists on the Island - >Auctioneers/Estate Agents, Solicitors etc. to assist >me (and protect my interests) if I decide to persue >this dream. > >Mick O'Flaherty > > > >____________________________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:08:44 -0000 >From: "Mike" >Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus >To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)'" > >Message-ID: <1124830611_1132@sthmail1> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Sgt Mann, > >I think that an, even elementary, history lesson would do you good. > >Mike >St Helena > > _____ > >From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf >Of Sgt Ivan Mann USMC 3/1 >Sent: 23 August 2005 11:14 >To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) >Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus > > >Yes it is a thought provoking piece that article especially what was left >out. About two-thirds of the colony's budget is provided by the United >Kingdom in the form of a subsidy. Now there going to foot the bill for an >airport? > > > >Thompson Vince wrote: > >As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. > >I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. > >I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a >reality >some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous >than >before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and >demographic fabric of the island. > >The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some >quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence >which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. > >Any Comment? > >Vince Thompson >-----Original Message----- >From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On >Behalf Of list-request@sthelena.se >Sent: 22 August 2005 11:00 >To: list@sthelena.se >Subject: List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 > >Send List mailing list submissions to >list@sthelena.se > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >list-request@sthelena.se > >You can reach the person managing the list at >list-owner@sthelena.se > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of List digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > >1. RE: Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion (Barry Miller) >2. FW: Article (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:04:09 +0100 >From: "Barry Miller" >Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Prison Camp, Amusing Discussion >To: >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Mike >well said >Barry > > >>> olsson@helanta.sh 08/19/05 09:43pm >>> > > >It is most entertaining to read the sometimes very emphatic >discussions >about Mr Goodey's flare. His original input to the list was relevant. >St >Helena was used as a remote prison, mainly for political dissidents >(like >Napoleon) until the late 1960s. > >I cannot understand the people, that have never been to the Island and >many >of them never likely to ever come here, to argue against a perfectly >sound >proposal - I mean sound as a proposal, not that it would be accepted by >the >community or ever become a reality but this idea has been aired before >together with using St Helena as nuclear waste disposal recipient. > >Don't worry - we can take it. We only live here. > >Mike >St Helena > > > > > > > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St >Helen! a e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. > > > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. >Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. > >The S:t Helena Mailing List >To unsubscribe please send a email to: >list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > >D I S C L A I M E R >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they >are addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of >the author and do not necessarily represent those of the >Trust unless explicitly stated otherwise. If you have received this >e-mail in error please delete the e-mail and contact the >Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust Helpdesk on:- >023 80796000 > >The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public >disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the >Information is le! gally exempt from disclosure, the confidentiality >of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. > >This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept >by MailMarshal for the presence of computer viruses. > >Please visit our website at http://www.suht.nhs.uk > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:58:08 -0000 >From: "John Turner, Bank of St. Helena" > >Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article >To: "'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic\(Eng\)'" > >Message-ID: <001401c5a6f7$a3449180$0a0b000a@shgbank10> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >My comments at the end. >JT > > >The Sunday Herald >Glasgow, Scotland >21 August 2005 > > >The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert > > >THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision >of >parad! ise, but the future of three of the >Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new >lives elsewhere. > >The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate >that >their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, >neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by >migration. > >All three are former British colonies but also have close historical >links >with New Zealand, where inhabitants are >automatically granted passports and residence. > >Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as >enviable >tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands >of >islanders to opt for a better life abroad. > >Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just >1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. >In >contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. > >Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now >call >the archipelago home, while 6000 of their >compatriots have moved to New Zealand. > >In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James >Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that >many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. > >A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, >a >regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the >Cooks >is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. > >Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations >are >suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the >group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not >only >are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce >the >next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a populati! on expert with the >secretariat. > >"Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's >very hard to attract them back," he added. > >Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The >Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast >give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle >Ages". > >"There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," >said >Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. > >"They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing >their >economies if they are to survive." > >The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent >territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over >a >vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which >are >only 200m wide. > >The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-k! m, are so crowded >that >domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, >foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's >only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a >fortnightly >boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. > >Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The >first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island >after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. > >An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly >because it showed the population had dipped as low as >1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's >smallest state by population. > >Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian >immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic >homogeneity. > >Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish >community hall, Ni! ue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The >country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted >effort >to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and >fisheries. > >"Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back >and >just twiddle their thumbs. They want a >comfortable living." > >Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue >is >surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've >wonderful >coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an >exotic >little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." > >Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau >approach >critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even >less >people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the >Bounty >mutineers in the 18th century. > >This case, though, ha! rdly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last >year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not >always fulfil its promise. > >----------------------------- > >In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to >start developing their economies if they are to survive". >John Turner >Manager >Bank of St. Helena >www.SaintHelenaBank.com >Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. >Tel: +290 2044 >Fax: +290 2196 >NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are >those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. >This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely >for >the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication >privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you >received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, >any >review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication >or >any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly >prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication >in >error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the >communication. Thank you. > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >List mailing list >List@sthelena.se >http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > > >End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 19 >************************************ > >Your attention is drawn to the fact that this email originated from a >source external to Network Rail. > > > >**************************************************************************** >******************** >The content of this email (and any attachment) is confidential. It may also >be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. > >This e! mail should not be used by anyone who is not an original intended >recipient, nor may it be copied or disclosed to anyone who is not an >original intended recipient. If you have received this email by mistake >please notify us by emailing the sender, and then delete the email and any >copies from your system. > >Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the >senders own and not made on behalf of Network Rail. >**************************************************************************** >******************** > > >The S:t Helena Mailing List >To unsubscribe please send a email to: >list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. > > > > > >gId=7134_198901_10730_1389_11137_0_43593_15049_2203258425&bodyPart=2&filenam >e=7d83.jpg&tnef=&YY=91173&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b> >SEMPER FI >Co. L 3rd Balattalion, 1st Marines, 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade >Sgt Ivan Mann USMC Retired > http://ca.geocities.com/imann.rm/index.html > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > _____ > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena >e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. > > > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St Helena >e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. > > >This message has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless St. >Helena e-mail security system using McAfee Webshield. >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050823/9e46b080/attachment.htm > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >List mailing list >List@sthelena.se >http://lists.kulturservern.se/mailman/listinfo/list > > >End of List Digest, Vol 14, Issue 23 >************************************ From thomas at flyingkettle.com Thu Aug 25 00:19:52 2005 From: thomas at flyingkettle.com (Thomas Goodey) Date: Thu Aug 25 00:20:12 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Property ownership In-Reply-To: References: <200508232109.j7NL9e4H018852@rex.kulturservern.se> Message-ID: <430D7118.14614.4C850B4@localhost> On 24 Aug 2005 at 22:13, Hokke Larsen wrote: > You must at least start building on that property within a year. Failing > to do that the property can (and probably will) be expropriated back to > SHG. As I understand it with no refund. Surely that would be against every human right in the book? Thomas Goodey ********************************************************* The introduction of a multiplicity of objectives into a problem not only destroys its unity, but also increases markedly both the time necessary for, and the actual personal danger involved in, its solution. ---------------- Nadreck of Palain VII From lloydscott32 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 25 08:06:39 2005 From: lloydscott32 at hotmail.com (LLOYD SCOTT) Date: Thu Aug 25 08:07:00 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Property ownership In-Reply-To: <430D7118.14614.4C850B4@localhost> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050825/243ebe51/attachment.htm From JERRYWILSON3940 at comcast.net Mon Aug 22 16:17:45 2005 From: JERRYWILSON3940 at comcast.net (Jerry Comcast) Date: Thu Aug 25 08:14:23 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] prisoners Message-ID: <001401c5a724$44744920$0301a8c0@toshibauser> dear st helenians were you aware the usa has more prisoners than farmers jay-p-dub-u -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050822/3894d517/attachment.htm From jerseymail at jerseymail.co.uk Mon Aug 22 13:12:42 2005 From: jerseymail at jerseymail.co.uk (Clive and Sue Borrowman) Date: Thu Aug 25 08:14:33 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508221108.j7MB8jdG002484@clamav01.foreshore.net> Interesting to see what response you get from that!! -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Clive Borrowman Sent: 22 August 2005 11:14 To: john.turner@sainthelenabank.com; All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: RE: [STHELENA] FW: Article After working in St. Helena I went to work in Niue. If there is one lesson to be learnt by St. Helena from Niue it is that St. Helena should not believe that having an airport will automatically bring in countless tourists. Niue has a first class airport built by New Zealand and a first class hotel paid for by New Zealand, all in an effort to encourage tourists to visit what is a South Pacific tropical island paradise, the same size as St. Helena. During one of the years I was working there New Zealand also spent $NZ800,000 on promoting the island as a tourist destination. Niue had 800 visitors in that time virtually all of whom arrived in and stayed on their own yachts. The hotel, with its two swimming pools, achieved an occupancy rate of just 4%. There are probably many other lessons St. Helena could learn from the situation Niue finds itself in. Clive Borrowman PS It also has a golf course just like that in St. Helena except that it has coconut trees instead of wind bent bushes as traps for your golf balls. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of John Turner, Bank of St. Helena Sent: 22 August 2005 09:58 To: 'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)' Subject: [STHELENA] FW: Article ************************************************************************ This e-mail has been received directly from the INTERNET: you should exercise a degree of caution since there can be no guarantee that the source or content of the message is authentic. If you receive inappropriate e-mail from an external source it is your responsibility to notify Computer Services Helpdesk (telephone 738884). The full States e-mail Usage Policy can be found here: http://intranet1/aware/Internet_email_issues.htm ************************************************************************ My comments at the end. JT The Sunday Herald Glasgow, Scotland 21 August 2005 The paradise islands which the locals are desperate to desert THEIR turquoise bays, white sand beaches and palm trees present a vision of paradise, but the future of three of the Pacific's smallest nations is under threat as their inhabitants seek new lives elsewhere. The tiny countries of Niue and Tokelau are losing people at such a rate that their continued viability has been cast into serious doubt. The larger, neighbouring Cook Islands have also been drastically depleted by migration. All three are former British colonies but also have close historical links with New Zealand, where inhabitants are automatically granted passports and residence. Although their homelands are regarded by the rest of the world as enviable tropical idylls, a dire lack of job opportunities has forced thousands of islanders to opt for a better life abroad. Niue, whose name means Behold The Coconut, now has a population of just 1200, down from 4000 when it was granted self-government 30 years ago. In contrast, 18,000 Niueans live in New Zealand, 2400km to the southwest. Tokelau is in a similarly precarious position - just 1500 people now call the archipelago home, while 6000 of their compatriots have moved to New Zealand. In the neighbouring Cook Islands, named after the explorer Captain James Cook, the population stands at around 15,000, but nearly four times that many have migrated to New Zealand and Australia. A study released last month by the Secretariat of the Pacific Community, a regional development body, shows that the population of Niue and the Cooks is continuing to decline, while Tokelau's is stagnant. Tucked up beside the international date line, all three island nations are suffering from critical shortages of people aged between 15 and 24, the group who normally propel economic growth, the secretariat said. "Not only are they the future labour force, they are the people who will produce the next generation," said Arthur Jorari, a population expert with the secretariat. "Once people have left and tasted life in a place like New Zealand, it's very hard to attract them back," he added. Ghost towns and empty houses litter Niue, known to locals simply as The Rock, with one guidebook commenting that "the villages on the east coast give an idea of how Europe must have looked after a plague in the Middle Ages". "There's no doubt that the viability of Niue and Tokelau is in doubt," said Ian Pool, a demographer from Waikato University in New Zealand. "They are extremely fragile places, and they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive." The challenges, however, are formidable. Tokelau, which is a dependent territory of New Zealand, consists of three tiny atolls spread out over a vast area of ocean. Each consists of a string of islets, some of which are only 200m wide. The islands, with a total surface area of just 12 sq-km, are so crowded that domestic pigs are kept on outlying reefs, foraging for shellfish in rock pools. They are renowned as the Pacific's only swimming swine. Access to the outside world depends on a fortnightly boat from Apia, the capital of Samoa. Niue is similarly minute, being one of the world's smallest states. The first European to see Niue was Cook, who in 1774 named it Savage Island after warriors with red-painted teeth tossed spears at his crew. An official headcount of islanders last year was hushed up, reportedly because it showed the population had dipped as low as 1000 - barely more than the 840 inhabitants of the Vatican, the world's smallest state by population. Recently there has been talk of trying to attract Chinese and Indian immigrants, but Niue's leaders are wary of changing the island's ethnic homogeneity. Despite the fact that the entire nation could fit inside a Scottish community hall, Niue's prime minister, Young Vivian, is upbeat. The country's 20-member legislative council is to embark on a concerted effort to lure its citizens back from New Zealand by boosting farming and fisheries. "Creating jobs is the key," Vivian said. "People don't want to come back and just twiddle their thumbs. They want a comfortable living." Tourism also has potential but is in its infancy, in part because Niue is surrounded by high limestone cliffs and has few beaches. "We've wonderful coves and caves, niches between the rocks," Vivian said. "We are an exotic little place. You haven't seen the world until you've seen Niue." Experts point out that while the populations of Niue and Tokelau approach critical levels, other islands in the Pacific have survived with even less people, such as the British colony of Pitcairn Island, settled by the Bounty mutineers in the 18th century. This case, though, hardly inspires hope, after it became embroiled, last year, in a widely publicised child-sex scandal. Paradise, alas, does not always fulfil its promise. ----------------------------- In my view, the key sentence here is the one that ends "... they need to start developing their economies if they are to survive". John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. ********************************************************************** Confidentiality: The information in this e-mail and any attachments may contain proprietary information some or all of which may be legally privileged. 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It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that the opening or use of this message and any attachments shall not adversely affect systems or data. Contact: If you require assistance, please contact the sender of this e-mail, or the States of Jersey Central IT Helpdesk. Helpdesk telephone +44(0)1534 738884 E-mail: CSDHelpdesk@gov.je States of Jersey web site ********************************************************************** The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. __________ NOD32 1.1198 (20050819) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com __________ NOD32 1.1198 (20050819) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From tmhughley at wcbcorps.com Thu Aug 18 02:16:09 2005 From: tmhughley at wcbcorps.com (Tessa M. Hughley) Date: Thu Aug 25 08:15:52 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Message-ID: Hello Raymond, I am in Portland, Oregon. The weather is also generally mild, lovely in the summer and rainy and dark in the winter. I've gotten used to that part of it. St. Helena has several little micro climactic areas. It can be very hot and dry in Jamestown and along the coast and less hot with more rain in the interior of the island. The coast is very dry and nearly barren, the seaward side of the island is very lush and ancient seeming, think Jurassic Park. There are parts that remind me of the Mediterranean and parts that remind me of England. It might be very hot in Jamestown but drive fifteen minutes or so into Blue Hill and the mist might be rolling across the hills. I love Blue Hill! Happy for a little talk of weather..... Tessa -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of Raymond Dopmeyer Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:53 PM To: All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng) Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey St. Helena, being very close to the Equator, I imagine would have a very nice mild winter. Here in the United States of America (northern hemisphere) we are having summer. I am in Minnesota where it is not very hot at the moment. You say you are in Portland; is that in Oregon or Maine? Raymond Dopmeyer, raydop@yahoo.com "Tessa M. Hughley" wrote: Thanks for the excellent article Paul! ........I hear St. Helena is having a very nice mild winter. How's the weather where you are?? Here in Portland after a very hot weekend we are enjoying a cool, grey morning. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se]On Behalf Of P. A. Koroluk Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:46 AM To: list@sthelena.se Subject: Re: [STHELENA] Response to Mr. Thomas Goodey Dear List Members, Although I hesitate to contribute to the drift of discussion away from St. Helena, I thought this timely article might provide some useful background reference. Your humble servant, Paul Koroluk writing from Tokyo +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ America (americamagazine.org) Vol. 193 No. 4, August 15, 2005 Bush, ! Torture and Lincoln's Legacy By James Ross Being the only superpower means never having to say you're sorry. In the year since the first photos of humiliation and torture at Abu Ghraib prison were leaked, there has been a flurry of Pentagon studies, jump-started criminal investigations and disturbing new revelations in the media. Yet public attention has not translated into sustained public outcry. The Bush administration has been remarkably successful thus far in in its efforts to avoid paying a political price for policies that are destined to endanger U.S. soldiers in future wars and harm America's long-term foreign policy interests. An important reason for this muted outrage has been the administration's skill in disparaging the laws of armed conflict--that hoary body of international law that does not ban war, but seeks to minimize the suffering war invariably produces. The administration has sought to portra! y this law, particularly the Geneva Conventions of 1949, as harmful rather than helpful for protecting America's security. When the first detainees arrived at Guanta'namo Bay in January 2002, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, declared them all to be unlawful combatants who "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. The United States, he said, would "for the most part, treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the Geneva Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate." Later that month, then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzales wrote to President Bush that the Geneva Convention provisions on questioning enemy prisoners were "obsolete" and argued, among other things, that rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Convention "[s]ubstantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal prosecution" of U.S. officials for war crimes. Over the objections of then-Secretary of State Colin Powell! and military leaders, President Bush essentially adopted this line. On Feb. 7, 2002, he announced that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in military operations against Al Qaeda. Rumsfeld told journalists that day: "The reality is the set of facts that exist today with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not necessarily the set of facts that were considered when the Geneva Convention was fashioned." The administration's rejection of the Geneva Conventions was unlawful, unnecessary and ultimately led to the abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guanta'namo Bay. Under the Geneva Conventions, captured members of armed groups such as Al Qaeda are not entitled to prisoner-of-war status. They are nonetheless entitled to the basic protections afforded all persons taken into custody in a battle zone, including protection from torture and other ill treatment, a fair trial should they be charged with a crime and, in the ! case of civilian detainees, periodic review of the security rationale for their detention. The administration's policy opened the door for the bizarre legal theories put forward in the infamous "torture memos" drafted in 2002 and 2003. Besides nearly defining away the concept of torture, these memos claim that no law, international or domestic, bans the president, as commander in chief, from ordering torture. (By this reasoning, Saddam Hussein could lawfully order torture too.) Although the White House frequently repeated the mantra of "humane treatment" of detainees, the rejection of the Geneva Conventions and the torture memos' encouragement of unlawful practices meant that the pragmatic and legally grounded U.S. military regulations on interrogations could safely be ignored. Abraham Lincoln and General Orders 100 The Bush administration's attitude toward the laws of war is a radical departure from longstanding U.S. military practice. During the Korean War, the United States treated enemy soldiers in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, even though none of the protagonists had yet to ratify the treaties. In Vietnam, captured Viet Cong were held as prisoners of war even though the letter of the law did not require it. This is an old and noble tradition. David Hackett Fischer describes in his recent book, Washington's Crossing, how Gen. George Washington made sure that captured British and Hessian soldiers were treated humanely, even though the British often executed captured Continentals. Washington was not just being generous: he understood that such treatment would over time best serve the interests of American soldiers. Surprisingly little attention has been paid to President Bush's--and everyone else's--most admired president, Abraham Lincoln, on the laws of war. Despite the grave threat the Civil War posed to the nation, Lincoln recognized the value of broadly recognized rules of war that promote restraint and humanistic principles. By late 1862, the bloody day at Antietam and the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation had totally changed the nature of the war. In Bruce Catton's words, "The war now was a war to preserve the Union and to end slavery.... It could not stop until one side or the other was made incapable of fighting any longer; hence, by the standards of that day, it was going to be an all-out war--hard, ruthless, vicious.... Lincoln recognized that such a conflict required greater attention to war's customary rules, not less. First was the problem of the legal status of captured Confederate soldiers. Lincoln did not want to recognize the rebellion of the Southern states as legitimate, nor was it desirable or feasible to label all Johnny Rebs as traitors subject to execution. He needed a way to treat captur! ed Confederate soldiers as prisoners of war without suggesting that the Confederate States of America was a lawful state. Second, the hyper-expansion of the U.S. military from a peacetime force of 13,000 professional soldiers to multiple armies of several hundred thousand volunteers and conscripts placed huge burdens on military discipline. In northern Virginia and other areas under federal occupation, vandalism by Union forces was rampant. Whereas the old army could slowly familiarize new recruits with the traditional laws of war, the Civil War army, whose officers were often as green as its foot soldiers, required a clearly written set of rules of practical value. Lincoln turned for advice to an e'migre' legal scholar, Francis Lieber, at Columbia College (now University) in New York City. Born in Berlin, Lieber as a teenager fought and was severely wounded during the Waterloo campaign. Prussian political repressio! n brought him to the United States in 1827. He taught for many years in South Carolina, keeping quiet his strong abolitionist views until he transferred to Columbia's faculty in 1857. More than his European upbringing, Lieber's views on the laws of war reflected his life in America: two of his sons fought for the Union, one losing an arm at Fort Donelson. His eldest son, raised in the South, joined the Confederate ranks and was mortally wounded at the Battle of Williamsburg in May 1862. In a letter to Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, Lieber wrote: "I knew war as [a] soldier, as a wounded man in the hospital, as an observing citizen, but I had yet to learn it in the phase of a father searching for his wounded son, walking through the hospitals, peering in the ambulances." Contrary to prevailing attitudes in the North, Lieber urged that on humanitarian grounds Union forces grant the privileges of belligerency to Conf! ederate forces. This allowed Lincoln to dodge the thorny question of appearing to recognize the Confederacy while providing rebel soldiers the protections then normally due prisoners of war. (Bush appeared to be adopting this approach when he called for the humane treatment of Guanta'namo detainees, but the practice never measured up to his words.) This humanistic strain runs through Lieber's Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, which President Lincoln approved on April 24, 1863, as General Orders No. 100. The Lieber code, as it is now known, was the first recognized codification of the laws of war in modern times. As Lieber noted at the time, "nothing of the kind exists in any language. I had no guide, no ground-work, no text-book." Its 157 rules made a lasting place for Lieber--and the United States--in the development of the laws of war. Lieber was no softie when it came to warfare. While believing that the final aim of war was to re-establish the state of peace, he argued that the best way to achieve this was through short, decisive wars. As Article 29 of Lieber's code states, "the more vigorously wars are pursued, the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief." This thinking underlines U.S. war-fighting doctrine today. The Lieber code has been criticized for its reliance on the doctrine of "military necessity," which permits often egregious practices so long as a commander has a military justification, an all-too-handy escape clause. But Lieber's conception of military necessity actually placed limits on an army's actions where previously none existed. Thus pre-Lieber code armies could loot and destroy civilian property at will, even when there was no military need for doing so. Other Lieber code provisions considered barbaric today--such as the starvation of besieged towns--wer! e part and parcel of 19th-century warfare and have since been prohibited. Such caveats aside, the Lieber code consolidated important humanizing elements of warfare. Of particular note are Lieber's, and ultimately Lincoln's, views on the treatment of prisoners. Article 16 of the code boldly states: "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions." All forms of cruelty against prisoners are prohibited. Even the code's broad acceptance of military necessity does not provide a justification for torture. General Orders No. 100 was distributed to the Union armies in the field, and the standards set by the code seem to have been generally observed by both sides. At the close of the war, the code's precepts figured in the debate over Sherman's destructive "March to the Sea,"! and in the trial and conviction of Captain Henry Wirtz, commandant of the notorious Confederate prison camp at Andersonville in Georgia. The major powers of Europe quickly recognized the value of codified laws of war, and Lieber's code became the model for Prussia and other armies on the continent. Ultimately this American vision of warfare and the treatment of prisoners became the basis for the major international treaties, namely the Hague Regulations at the turn of the 20th century and the Geneva Conventions at mid-century. Geneva's strict prohibitions on torture and other cruel treatment can be traced through Lieber's own uncompromising language. Pooh-Poohing the Geneva Conventions The Bush administration, by openly disregarding the laws of war in its treatment of detainees, has undermined an important American tradition. Even after the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos, Secretary Rumsfeld continued to poo! h-pooh the Geneva Conventions. On NBC's "Today" program on May 5, 2004, he explained that the conventions "did not apply precisely" but were "basic rules" for handling prisoners. Visiting Abu Ghraib a week later, Rumsfeld remarked: "Geneva doesn't say what you do when you get up in the morning" In fact, the U.S. armed forces have devoted considerable energy over the years to making the Geneva Conventions fully operational among military personnel. Various U.S. military field manuals and operational handbooks provide the means for implementing Geneva Convention provisions, even where those provisions are unclear. While the media often still refer to the "Abu Ghraib scandal," we now know serious crimes were committed in several dozen detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guanta'namo Bay. According to the Pentagon's latest count, no fewer than 27 detainee deaths were criminal homicides. The C.I.A. has admitted to using water-boarding (near drowning), unmistakably a form of torture. And documents newly released under the Freedom of Information Act have confirmed some of the more extreme accounts of detainee abuse. In the meantime, one suspects those Abu Ghraib photos are being used by Al Qaeda and others as recruiting posters. The White House has treated these crimes in the manner of a tin-pot dictatorship. It has engaged in pseudo-hand-wringing, dog-and-pony investigations and lackluster criminal prosecutions that have concentrated on the "bad apples" at the bottom of the barrel and ignored those at the top. The connection between the official policies and the unofficial practices has yet to be fully investigated. Administration officials most responsible have gotten promotions and praise rather than the boot. One top official, now out of office, fully understood where the administration was leading us. The day after A! lberto Gonzales sent his January 2002 memo to the president, Colin Powell submitted a stinging rebuke. He wrote that declaring the Geneva Conventions inapplicable to the Afghan conflict would "reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practice in supporting the Geneva Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and in general." And he warned that it would have "a high cost in terms of negative international reaction, with immediate adverse consequences for our conduct of foreign policy." Other dissenters are beginning to come out of the woodwork. Shortly after stepping down from his post as State Department legal advisor, William H. Taft IV told an audience at American University in March of this year: "It has been a continuing source of amazement and, I may add, considerable disappointment to me that...lawyers at the Department of Justice thought it was importa! nt to decide at that time that the Conventions did not apply to al Qaeda as a matter of law.... This unsought conclusion unhinged those responsible for the treatment of the detainees in Guanta'namo from the legal guidelines for interrogation of detainees reflected in the Conventions and embodied in the Army Field Manual for decades." Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to punish properly those responsible for war crimes will place captured American soldiers and civilians in future wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years have looked to the United States as a source of inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime have lost an important ally. The difficult task of promoting decent conduct in the world's myriad vicious little wars--wars that often affect U.S. interests--has now become even harder. The Bush administration, its moral claims aside, has given the protection of basic human dig! nity short shrift. Abraham Lincoln's legacy of a humane articulation of the laws of war has long served the interests of the United States. Americans can be genuinely proud of it. It is a legacy that with each feckless Pentagon investigation and half-hearted war crimes prosecution becomes more and more imperiled. James Ross is senior legal advisor for Human Rights Watch in New York. He attended military commission hearings at Guanta'namo Bay in November 2004. Copyright (c) 2005 by America Press, Inc. All Rights Reserved. For information about America, go to www.americamagazine.org. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. The S:t Helena Mailing List To unsubscribe please send a email to: list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. _____ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.kulturservern.se/pipermail/list/attachments/20050817/7605c6a2/attachment-0001.htm From jcoyle at powerup.com.au Tue Aug 30 06:40:18 2005 From: jcoyle at powerup.com.au (John Coyle) Date: Tue Aug 30 06:38:31 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Born St Helena 1831 - what circumstances? References: <00be01c5a3df$6028ac80$0301010a@GLENROD04> Message-ID: <004f01c5ad1c$ec6aa9f0$0400000a@PRAXIS> Rod, I haven't seen any other responses to your enquiry, so hopefully this link will help - http://website.lineone.net/~sthelena/saulsolomon.htm. See the third paragraph, particularly. Essentially, the current Solomon and Co. was founded about 1790 under other names, and there was at one time a company known as Gideon, Moss and Co., but I am not sure that the two were the same entity. The Solomon family, and thus the Gideons, were extensively involved with the Mosses for decades afterwards: when I worked for Solomon's in 1967-69, George Moss was the General Manager. HTH John Coyle Brisbane, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod & Glen Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: [STHELENA] Born St Helena 1831 - what circumstances? A relation I'm researching appears to have been born on St. Helena in 1831. I'm fascinated to know in what circumstances that event would have taken place. The gentleman's name was George Vernon Gideon, probably of English stock I would have thought. He later grew up to become a captain in the English merchant navy. Was there an English garrison on St. Helena at the time? Would a ship perhaps call in there if Mrs. Gideon was close to giving birth? Suggestions welcomed. Rod Smith Wellington New Zealand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The S:t Helena Mailing List > To unsubscribe please send a email to: > list-leave@sthelena.se and answer the confirm mail. From john.turner at sainthelenabank.com Wed Aug 31 15:31:57 2005 From: john.turner at sainthelenabank.com (John Turner, Bank of St. Helena) Date: Wed Aug 31 15:32:41 2005 Subject: [STHELENA] Don't miss this ... Message-ID: <001701c5ae30$5ff14dc0$0a0b000a@shgbank10> If you are fascinated by St.?Helena politics, or just like having a laugh, listen to SaintFM on the internet tonight at 7pm (GMT). The polls close here at 7pm and, following in the tradition of the UK and, I think, America, that means that all the rules about what you can and cannot say before an election come to an end. So SaintFM will be broadcasting an 'Election Special', with all the usual satirical comment etc. There is not a strong tradition of lampooning politicians on St.?Helena, but we wil go as far as we can... To listen on the Internet go to www.saint.fm and click on the 'Listen Live' links. You may need to download a small piece of software so allow time for this. Have fun and, if you can listen in, tell me what you think of our efforts. JT -----Original Message----- From: John Turner, Bank of St. Helena [mailto:john.turner@sainthelenabank.com] Sent: 22 August 2005 14:20 To: 'All about St. Helena - The Island in the South Atlantic(Eng)' Subject: RE: [STHELENA] Second thoughts on the airport Having been involved in managing change, in one form or another, for most of my career, I have seen a good many reactions to the prospect of change. The swing from initial enthusiasm through to 'second thoughts' doubt is quite normal, and usually settles down to a realistic view of the benefits and costs that the change will bring. But there is one aspect of change that is often forgotten - there is no alternative. The 'no change' option rarely exists. It does not exist for St.?Helena. If the airport project was cancelled tomorrow, St.?Helena would not stay preserved in its present state like some form of cultural specimen. St.?Helena was changing before the airport was announced, and that change was not generally to the liking of the population. Around 50% of Saints currently live and work off-island. That creates a number of problems for families, particularly where one or both parents are working abroad and the children are being raised by relatives. And it creates operational problems too, because the off-island workers tend to be the more skilled. Someone is reported to have quipped that "Anyone with any get-up-and-go has got-up-and-gone". This is not a view to which I subscribe - there are a great many talented and skilled people still here - but that will not continue if depopulation and economic decline are not reversed. Depopulation also causes undesirable business effects. The costs of the necessary infrastructure of modern life (water, electricity, telephones, roads, etc.) are shared between a decreasing number of people, so prices rise. And in many cases, businesses have folded on St.?Helena simply because there are too few customers to make them viable. Starting a new business into a declining market is a daunting prospect, and who can blame people for concluding that it just isn't worth the risk. DfID wouldn't be spending (reputedly) ?100m of UK taxpayer's money (Thanks, Vince & Others) on an Airport if it didn't believe it was key to reversing the decline of St.?Helena. So, by all means, lets be worried about the possible downsides of having an airport. We must accept that some of the uniqueness of St.?Helena will be lost. But without the airport, St.?Helena is heading for a future as an abandoned rock, and I don't think anybody wants that. Regards, John Turner Manager Bank of St. Helena www.SaintHelenaBank.com Post Office Building, Main Street, Jamestown, St. Helena Island. Tel: +290 2044 Fax: +290 2196 NOTICE TO RECIPIENTS: Any opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author and not necessarily those of the Bank of St. Helena. This communication and any attachments are confidential, meant solely for the intended recipient of the transmission, and may be a communication privileged by law. Access to this by anyone else is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error or are not the intended recipient, any review, use, dissemination, distribution, copying of this communication or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by reply and then kindly delete the communication. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: list-bounces@sthelena.se [mailto:list-bounces@sthelena.se] On Behalf Of Thompson Vince Sent: 22 August 2005 10:52 To: list@sthelena.se Subject: [STHELENA] Pacific Island Exodus As usual, a thought provoking piece from the New Bank Manager. I wonder, John, if you mentioned this 'Herald' article on Saint fm. I understand that as the prospect of an airport becomes more of a reality some of the island populace are [understandably] becoming more nervous than before about the effect it will have on the social, economic and demographic fabric of the island. The result of this is a fairly distinct expression of xenophobia in some quarters. In other words, some people are anti every possible influence which is not 100% pure home grown St Helena. Any Comment? Vince Thompson